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Captain Bolivar

How Would You Rate "Chosen Realm"?

What rating would you give "Chosen Realm" out of 10?  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. What rating would you give "Chosen Realm" out of 10?

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So, the message of the episode, as far as I can see...

Basically what you're saying is that even though you haven't seen it you understand it better than I do even though I watched it. If you had seen and disagreed that would be one thing - :grin:

 

As for all those that say the ending was a surprise:

Click for Spoiler:

did you see "let that be your last battlefied" Edited by TheUnicornHunter

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I found this episode to be quite entertaining on the whole, I give it a steady 6.

 

Click for Spoiler:

I actually wish to dissent the common opinion that this episode preached against religions. In fact, I thought this episode made some EXCELLENT points.

Note: Due to my experience with religions being primarily Christian in nature, I am forced to use Christianity as my reference for the most part.

 

First of all, I wish to clarify something, D'Jamat and his followers were not attempting to commit genocide for a truly religious reason (in fact it wouldn't even surprise me if their religious law specifically forbade genocide), they were attempting to commit suicide for a doctrinal reason. A doctrine being a religious precept held by an individual that could be construed from whatever religious sources there are (Bible, Q'rran, etc.) but is not specifically stated in the aforementioned sources. For example, suppose I take the biblical scripture "God dwelleth in unapproachable light." and say "therefore, I believe God lives on the sun." I have created a doctrine. The Bible does not specifically state that God lives on the sun, but it presents no objection to my believing it. However, if I take this doctrine and say that people must believe it or they are not Christians, I am saying that my word is equal to the Bible's and am committing a sin of arrogance and blasphemy. I have become a religious fanatic. Such persons are responsible for the slaughters of innocents in the crusades.

 

D'jamat is a religious fanatic. He and his followers wish to commit genocide because the other faction disagrees on the number of days it took the makers to create the chosen realm. The very fact that they disagree indicates that the matter is in doubt, thus there is no official word (scripture, writing, holy prophet floating in the air, etc.). D'jamat is not wanting to kill his opponents because they differ religiously, he wants to kill them because they differ with him on a small portion of his beliefs that could be interpreted differently, and, indeed, is of little import to the "religion" itself. Which brings us to the first good point in the episode.

 

1: Religious groups divide and fight over STUPID things. For example one of the reasons the Roman Catholic Church divided in 1054 A.D. was over having statues in the building. The Eastern Orthodox split off and formed its own division for this and other reasons. My point is that there is no clear picture of which is right. Yes the second commandment reads in Exodus 20:5-7 "(5) You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. "(6) You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a (7) jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,:"

 

It could be saying, "don't make anything and worship it." or it could be saying "don't make anything." both interpretations could be correct, but the answer would be an opinion, a doctrine, not a law. The two churches fought, excommunicated each other, and blasted the other from pulpits all for a matter of opinion.

 

Not all scripture is a matter of opinion, however. Take the seventh commandent "You shall not commit adultery." That leaves no room for opinion. One who preaches otherwise is either not a Christian, or an extremely uneducated one.

In the ep, the suicide bombers die believing they have served their religion, unfortunately for them, they have been led astray by their leader. They are not dying for their religion. They are dying for their leader's doctrine (nine days doctrine).

 

which lead us to the second main point.

 

2: Leaders who do not allow their followers to think should be regarded with suspicion (yes, in the armed forces immediate action may be required, but you can "think later"). If a religion is true, close examination will only build faith. And if a leader rejects this, he is either power-hungry, or insane (thinking he is God and knows all).

 

So, IMHO, this episode cast light on what is wrong with many churches and sects (i.e. the followers), but did not cast stones at the religions themselves.

 

 

 

Rather thought provoking at times, and I actually liked it a little bit better than "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield," mainly because I hated the RED scenes at the end of that episode. The effect didn't work and ruined the climax for me. But they are rather similar and evoke similar thoughts.

 

G'bye all,

CQ

 

EDIT: Er ... well, whilst I was composing Trinneer girl basically said what I was trying to say, except more concisely.

Edited by CaptQuick

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Click for Spoiler:

Yes TUH, I have seen 'Let that be your last battlefield'. But truthfully the similarities in the endings never crossed my mind until I started reading about it here. I guess I'm just don't make comparisons like that while I was watching it. Of course now I see the similarities in the endings..But I still liked 'Chosen Realm' and I still give it a 8.5.. Edited by spacetigger

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Capt Quick I understand what you're saying but I think you missed the point. There was a lot more than just the overt references to extremists...there was an attitude of condescencion from the very beginning - maybe it was subtle to some but it sounded like a clarion to me.

 

Click for Spoiler:

I thought this episode was very poorly written because they didn't make the nine/ten day argument believable. I thought the "difference" issue was handled in "let that be your last battlefield" much better when the two faced each other but then the opposing sides were in conflict during the entire episode where we barely saw the "ten dayers" in this episode. And yes, I kept thinking "last battlefied" throughout this episode.

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I enjoyed this episode but it may have only been because I haven't seen one in weeks.

Click for Spoiler:

I thought the story was a little boring with the ship being taken over, it's getting old. It would of been o.k. if there was a really interesting story. The combination of played out scenario and boring story just didn't live up to prior season 3 episodes. I will only touch briefly on the religion aspect of the epi. What I took away from the episode was how important it is to have respect and understanding of other peoples beliefs. I do tend to look on the bright side of things though. As for the T'pol should be stronger argument, she couldn't fight anyone with out taking the chance that one of the aliens would blow themselves up. She let them push her aside, big deal, she didn't find it logical to fight back in this situation.

I gave the episode a 6.5.

Edited by archerfan

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[COLOR=yellow]

So, the message of the episode, as far as I can see...

Basically what you're saying is that even though you haven't seen it you understand it better than I do even though I watched it. If you had seen and disagreed that would be one thing - :grin:

 

Is that how it came across? I didn't mean to sound dictatorial TheUnicornHunter, sorry. :blush!:

 

A friend of mine, who is a practicing Catholic and Ent fan also found the 'message' in the show to be heavy handed and a little patronising.

 

I suppose the nostrum I was trying to sell from my snakeoil wagon was what I thought the episode was meant to portray from what I'd read in the way of previews, reviews and from other comments. It's a tough call to write a show about religion without being accused of either not going far enough, or going over the top. And it's not like Arthur C Clarke's 2061, where it's argued strongly that any sign of religion is ipso facto a sign of psychosis and should be treated!

 

To me all that matters is that it's another Archer does everything episode that puts Trip down, again! Used to be a 'big three' and I loved the dynamic. Now it's all Archer and T'Pol and has been for months and I'm getting a little bored. :wow:

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Yes, I'm ba-a-a-a-ack! At least for the time being...

 

"Chosen Realm" did not live up to its considerable potential. As one poster has said, there were echoes of "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield" (TOS), but this remake was sophomoric in its slamming of religion. Make no mistake, all religion was slammed here. As another poster pointed out, it was certainly "unreal" that the split between factions occurred because of a disagreement over whether the expanse was created in 8 or 9 days. That was a direct punch at the Christian Church's split over the date of Easter...but the truth is, the divide was over much, much larger issues than that. To say otherwise is a gross oversimplification. Unfortunately, when Hollywood looks at religion, any religion, oversimplification is the name of the game.

 

As to more mundane matters: As many have pointed out, there were too many inconsistencies regarding security. How could the hijackers know how to aim, fire, and power down weapons but be clueless about navigation and transporters? How could an unauthorized person delete crucial records so easily? Hasn't anyone aboard ENT ever heard of backup files?

 

Mundane matter number two: WHERE WAS HOSHI? Good Lord, even Mayweather got more air time than she did. Now that's scary. :grin:

 

I agree with Moulin Rouge that Archer is much more admirable when he's kicking a little rear end. I, too, like the tougher, meaner, more focused Archer. And like Moulin Rouge, I'd rather the Cap'n stay off his high horse and out of the pulpit. He doesn't preach well.

 

Best moment in this episode: When the fanatic promised to pray for Archer, and Archer responded with a tight-jawed, "Save your breath." I wouldn't have crossed him at that moment. :wow:

 

Hey, these icons are fun. I'll try not to get carried away.

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well i gave it a big fat 0. the writers have lost the plot line i think and season 3 isn't as good as season 2 action wise. big let i say. :grin:

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First off, I thought Reed had alreadly advised the Capt. about not allowing visitors to roam around the ship-they should never been allowed near Engineering, or the Command Center. As for the Computer and the Xindi data-computer should have been encrypted, and backed-up, and transmitted to earth-incase the Enterprise was lost. WHAT KIND OF SHIP IS ARCHER RUNNING ANYWAY! :force:

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myself i alwats like the first because you meet them like new people and pick your favs

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To me all that matters is that it's another Archer does everything episode that puts Trip down, again!  Used to be a 'big three' and I loved the dynamic.  Now it's all Archer and T'Pol and has been for months and I'm getting a little bored. :force: [/color]

I definitely agree with that.

 

And maybe their intentions were good with the religion issue but it didn't meet expectations.

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I just re-watched this episode and I still don't see what was so bad about this episode. I think it's a real good episode..Did they really put down religion in everybody's eyes ? I just don't see that they did..Only this one alien fanatical religious group..Does anybody see any similarities with any religion here on Earth ? Are there religious groups here that are that fanatical and oblivious to what they are doing? Not that I know of..

 

The only problem I have with the episode is how easily T'Pol was pushed aside. But I've convinced myself it's because she thought they would blow up the ship if she resisted..

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I just re-watched this episode and I still don't see what was so bad about this episode. I think it's a real good episode..Did they really put down religion in everybody's eyes ? I just don't see that they did..Only this one alien fanatical religious group..Does anybody see any similarities with any religion here on Earth ? Are there religious groups here that are that fanatical and oblivious to what they are doing? Not that I know of..

 

The only problem I have with the episode is how easily T'Pol was pushed aside. But I've convinced myself it's because she thought they would blow up the ship if she resisted..

That may be harder to answer than it seems because it involves being able to see things from someone else's perspective. Try not to think so much of the specific analogy of this fanatical group to a specific religion and more of how Archer and T'Pol discussed these people's beliefs before any of the trouble started.

 

I'm editing this - the truth is I sensed a very heavy handed condescending attitude toward religion - all I can tell you is how I felt. I truly believe they would never insult other groups like that or apologize if they did but in Hollywood insulting religion seems to be acceptable fare.

 

I also get disgusted with Hollywood in general because they always choose the most radical, non-representative religious person they can find to discuss religion rather than the hundreds of thousands of normal persons of faith.

 

As for T'Pol, I've said before they never really intended to make her a real character but rather a convenient body to throw around whenever it suits them.

Edited by TheUnicornHunter

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I thought the close quarter battle scenes in the episode were good. I also continue to enjoy Dr. Phlox. The more I see of his character and the ingenuity he contains the more I like him. I thought that using the transporter in a rouge was kind of unbelievable. If the religious leader was really loyal to his faith he would have killed Archer were he stood. I thought they could have come up with a more original trick than the transporter. Overall I enjoyed the episode and I liked the tie in with current events. :force:

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As for T'Pol, I've said before they never really intended to make her a real character but rather a convenient body to throw around whenever it suits them.

I have to disagree with that point. I have always found T'Pol to be one of the more complex characters in the show as she tries to deal with her interaction with a human crew (and the exploration of her surfacing emotions), the contrast between the two cultures and her growing admiration for the way the crew are evolving.

 

I also think that Jolene Blalock does a fine job of filling out the character effectively making her IMO the most interesting protrayal of a Vulcan since Spock.

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I also think that Jolene Blalock does a fine job of filling out the character effectively...

Interesting choice of words. She certainly fills out the catsuit well.

 

I suspect we will probably always disagree - to me it seems T'Pol looks is always being tied up or rescued - or running to Archer to make her decisions for her. But now that I think about it Archer gets taken captive a lot too. Maybe the writers need some help with their plots.

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I also think that Jolene Blalock does a fine job of filling out the character effectively...

Interesting choice of words. She certainly fills out the catsuit well.

 

I suspect we will probably always disagree - to me it seems T'Pol looks is always being tied up or rescued - or running to Archer to make her decisions for her. But now that I think about it Archer gets taken captive a lot too. Maybe the writers need some help with their plots.

I see where you are coming from but obviously we have come to different conclusions.

 

As I see it the human characters have to be the 'action men' to show their emotional aspects while T'Pol is the self-assured brain who is confronting things she would not usually have to deal with. In a sense these characters have to be shown as weaker to highlight that they still have some way to go before they are as culturally evolved as the characters presented in the other shows.

 

For the sexual implications, they don't really worry me as much as quite a few seem to be, especially when you consider that TOS was a lot more suggestive and risky for the time it was made. In fact I think it would be cool if Archer or Trip regularly kicked *buttocks* (ripped shirt optional :force: ), got the girl, then resolved the situation with un-patronising terminology. I would also like to see the show based around a 'big four' comprising of Archer, T'Pol, Trip and Reed.

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I just re-watched this episode and I still don't see what was so bad about this episode. I think it's a real good episode..Did they really put down religion in everybody's eyes ? I just don't see that they did..Only this one alien fanatical religious group..Does anybody see any similarities with any religion here on Earth ? Are there religious groups here that are that fanatical and oblivious to what they are doing? Not that I know of..

 

The only problem I have with the episode is how easily T'Pol was pushed aside. But I've convinced myself it's because she thought they would blow up the ship if she resisted..

That may be harder to answer than it seems because it involves being able to see things from someone else's perspective. Try not to think so much of the specific analogy of this fanatical group to a specific religion and more of how Archer and T'Pol discussed these people's beliefs before any of the trouble started.

 

I'm editing this - the truth is I sensed a very heavy handed condescending attitude toward religion - all I can tell you is how I felt. I truly believe they would never insult other groups like that or apologize if they did but in Hollywood insulting religion seems to be acceptable fare.

 

I also get disgusted with Hollywood in general because they always choose the most radical, non-representative religious person they can find to discuss religion rather than the hundreds of thousands of normal persons of faith.

 

As for T'Pol, I've said before they never really intended to make her a real character but rather a convenient body to throw around whenever it suits them.

Responding to TheUnicornHunter's observation that Hollywood loves to present the most radical religious types as the norm: Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. At least DS9 made an attempt, in the beginning, to show Kira's religion as viable -- but as time went on, even the religion of the Prophets was presented as radical and corrupt. Where are the "normal" religious types? And how many times have I glanced over at my husband during an episode of ST (any ST) and said, "They need a chaplain"? (Hint: more than I have eyeballs.) This from someone who's experienced firsthand the need for a spiritual leader aboard ship. Hollywood really should get over the idea that religious people are, by definition, nutsy-cuckoo, and as such, are the last group it's pc to deride. Well, one of the last groups. There are a few others, but I won't go there tonight.

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I'm having a hard time rating this one. I have the same complaints as everyone else here, the deleting of sensitive files, which should have NEVER been left open, *if they were* imo, ("These are the most sensitive of our files, please feel free to delete them if they displease you in any way, shape, or form. Thank you for using the NX-01 computer system.") the accessing of personal logs, (HELLO, how come Archer didn't have those password protected? I think our computer 'paranoid' thinking would be carried on into the 23 century.) and the pushing around of T'Pol. (lol) Sure, they rescued these people, but they didn't know them from 'Adam', and they shouldn't be roaming around the ship so freely. And after the dinner with D'J (sp) Archer should have realized he had a live wire on his hands and kept a close eye on him. He kind of brought the 'take over' of the ship upon himself by not protecting his people from the 'terrorists'. He's responsible for their lives and he blew it big time. I hated the preaching at the end, too. If they would have stuck with the 'lunitic fringe' idea, i.e. David Korresh, Jim Jones, I would have liked it better, but to slam someone for their faith is wrong. I'll have to watch the eppy again this weekend to refresh my memory, but I thought that Archer, in his dealing with someone he hardly knew; and an ALIEN race to boot, was way to angry. Trek is always preaching tolerance, for ALL things, but this one betrayed it's own words. You know, when you think about it, it lay in Archers' lap when it's all over. When you open the door to the 'devil' you'd better be prepared for the big fire that follows. That's an interesting analogy. Just thought of that one myself. :force:

It was a good eppy but there were some serious flaws that could have easily been repaired.

JMHO

Katy

:eek:

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I gave this ep a 7. It was not a bad ep but I think that some issues could have been handlesd better. Maybe they could have emphsized that all of the people of this race are not like that group. Well I guess they did in a way. Plus I thought Vulcans were supposed to be 3 times stronger than human? At least that was what was stated in DS9 I think, so why is T'pol is so easily subdued episode after episode. I know the people capturing her are not human but come on. Does this eps remind you of TOS eps Let that be your last Battlefield?

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Archer and Crew have been in the Expanse how long now?? A pretty good time has gone by. Archer is bound to make common sense mistakes. He is probably under a lot of stress (i imagine). The entire database fiasco was more than a common sense error. They should have had that puppy security patched! Afterall...how many times have they been boarded easily and undetected by groups like the Suliban?? As was forementioned...I agree that Archer blew this one big time -- however, he needs to make some serious mistakes in order to make his character realistic in any sense. It's part of the journey.

 

As for the religous/terrorist mumbo jumbo and Archer's preaching...I don't feel that it was extreme. Archer needs to be allowed to make points that the audience disagree with. That's the beauty of storyline creation.

 

Overall...6.5/10. Not one of my favorities of course. I think it is on par with the episode "The Seventh" from season 2. Blah blah.

Edited by SuraksSoul

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I just rewatched this - to see how I felt a second time around. I realized T'Pol is a self-righteous hypocrite. For two and a half years she's been preaching at Archer how provincial it is to judge other cultures by your standards. If aliens invade a ship and leave the bodies attached to machines to drain their fluids - it's not your place to get involved. If a race keeps one gender in virtual slavery denied all civil rights - it's not your place to judge other cultures....etc, etc.

 

But if a person doesn't accept your scienfitic analyses then by all means you can be rude and condescending to them at dinner.

 

SuraksSoul Posted on Jan 17 2004, 01:04 PM

As for the religous/terrorist mumbo jumbo and Archer's preaching...I don't feel that it was extreme. Archer needs to be allowed to make points that the audience disagree with. That's the beauty of storyline creation.

 

Under basic ideals of free speech that is true but just how much latitude would you give him. Would you be as supportive if he made a racist or sexist comment? How about if T'Pol snubbed an abortion or gay rights activist? Would that be as acceptable?

 

Basically the plot was too contrived for it to be a useful analogy

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SuraksSoul Posted on Jan 17 2004, 01:04 PM

As for the religous/terrorist mumbo jumbo and Archer's preaching...I don't feel that it was extreme. Archer needs to be allowed to make points that the audience disagree with. That's the beauty of storyline creation.

 

Under basic ideals of free speech that is true but just how much latitude would you give him. Would you be as supportive if he made a racist or sexist comment? How about if T'Pol snubbed an abortion or gay rights activist? Would that be as acceptable?

 

Basically the plot was too contrived for it to be a useful analogy

D'Jamat was so narrow-minded and set in his ways that Archer was just fed up with the arrogance that accompanies that thinking. The entire civilization was wiped out because of blindness.

 

The Crusades (+ other religious wars) are a remarkable historical example of the way this kind of thinking operates. People think they have some divine providence to go wipe others out over something that's not worth the cost of the bloodshed. Just a historical regurgitation that I got out of the episode.

 

Some people are "religious extremists." They give religion a bad name because they think that only their views matter and are willing to use violent methods to coerce people into the same faith. D'Jamat falls into this category (as do both of the two religious sects of the planet). I don't think that anyone would agree that killing someone in the name of religion is good thing. Therefore, I believe Archer was correct in using the form of language that he did. It would have been different if he had said it to someone of a "peaceful faith" who didn't want to annihalate anyone who disagreed with him/her.

Edited by SuraksSoul

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SuraksSoul Posted on Jan 18 2004, 01:05 AM

D'Jamat was so narrow-minded and set in his ways that Archer was just fed up with the arrogance that accompanies that thinking.  The entire civilization was wiped out because of blindness.

But they were rude to this guy before he displayed any signs of violence or extremisn and that was my point. I believe I made it clear that was what I was refering to. I don't think T'Pol's behavior here can be justified as consistent with what she has previously preached. Once the aliens took over the ship that was a different story - I would have had few choice words myself.

Edited by TheUnicornHunter

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I enjoyed the episode quite a bit. Listening to the religious fanatics pissed me off! But thats what happens to me when I hear that kind of chatter.

 

Anyway, what is the deal with T'Pol? I was slack jawed when I saw her pushed aside so easily. I'd expect some "The Matrix" moves from her or some sort of skilled self defense techniques.

 

Overall I'd say I like this season very much. I hope it continues!!!

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Do you know what bothers me? The writers don't care what we think about these shows as long as we watch them. And we all watch them to see if they get better.

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