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poguemahone

Is Starfleet Military?

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Main Entry: ci·vil·ian

Pronunciation: s&-'vil-y&n also -'vi-y&n

Function: noun

Date: 14th century

1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force b : OUTSIDER 1

- civilian adjective

 

This would imply that civilians are either "non military" or simply "outside of Starfleet". I say Starfleet is only a military when it needs to be, the rest of the time, being an explorratory program.

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Main Entry: ci·vil·ian

Pronunciation: s&-'vil-y&n also -'vi-y&n

Function: noun

Date: 14th century

1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force b : OUTSIDER 1

- civilian adjective

 

This would imply that civilians are either "non military" or simply "outside of Starfleet".  I say Starfleet is only a military when it needs to be, the rest of the time, being an explorratory program.

 

Here's a few others since we are looking through a dictionary.

 

Civilian:

 

From OneLook Dictionary:

 

noun: a nonmilitary citizen

adjective: associated with or performed by civilians as contrasted with the military (Example: "Civilian clothing civilian life")

 

 

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

civilian noun [C]

a person who is not a member of the police or the armed forces:

 

 

From Wordsmyth Dictionary:

 

Pronunciation sE vIl yEn

Definition 1. a person who is not serving in the military or the police.

 

military adjective

1 relating to or belonging to the armed forces:

foreign military intervention

military targets/forces

military uniform

 

2 describes a characteristic that is typical of the armed forces:

military precision

 

militarily adverb

 

the military group noun

the armed forces:

The military has opposed any cuts in defence spending.

 

 

Why are you so dead set against the military? Why can't you see the "reality" that Starfleet IS a military? We have given you the proof from the Starfleet charter itself that calls it a military.

 

Name any civilian group or organization that has fleets of war ships, ground troops a training academy, a Military Rank structure, a charter declaring them a Military, will court martial members for shooting themselves in the foot during battle (DS9 episode ...Nor the Battle to the Strong), will court martial commanders for negligence in their command (TOS episode Court Marital).

 

So there's no confusion on what a Court Martial is:

 

 

From Encarta:

 

court-mar·tial

 

noun  (plural courts-mar·tial, court-mar·tials)

 

1. military court: a military court that tries members of the military and others for offenses under military law

 

 

2. military trial: a trial by court-martial

 

 

 

transitive verb  (past court-mar·tialed, past participle court-mar·tialed, present participle court-mar·tial·ing, 3rd person present singular court-mar·tials)

 

try by military court: to try somebody by a military court for an offense under military law.

 

If all of this was taken out of the context of the television show Star Trek and you replace "Star Trek" with the country of "Federation" but you leave all the other facts alone. What would "Starfleet" be then?

 

Pretend now that the country of "Dominion" has declared war on the country of "Federation" what does "Federation" do? Do they send their crack team of auto-makers out to defeat the dastardly makers of baby food from "Dominion"? Do they send their peace loving scientists out to fight them? No, "Federation" sends it's Military out to fight "Dominion's" Military.

 

What is "Federation's" military called? "Starfleet". Is "Starfleet's" only mission in life one of armed conflict? No, it is used for research, it has civilian (See above for definition of civilian) branches within it and it is used to ensure peach and further "Federation's" knowledge.

 

Now that we have this war being waged on Earth between these 2 fictional countries, change a few small details in the story. Change it from being on Earth to being in Cardassian space. Transform "Federation" into The United federation of Planets and transform "Dominion" into The Dominion. You still have Starfleet fighting a war for a President, you still have the war ships and ground troops. You still have the rank structure and everything else (not to mention the Starfleet Charter that declares Starfleet as a Military). The only thing that has changed is the setting.

 

Starfleet IS military.

 

As far as saying Starfleet is only military when it needs to be is like saying that I am only a human when I need to be.

 

Does that mean that the United States Army is only Military when it needs to be? What about the parts that aren't in battle? Are they still military? And how would you govern the rules and laws, one set during the time it is a military and another set when it's civilian? You'd have to because a Court Martial is a military court and how could you court martial someone if they are not military?

 

That statement shows a complete lack of understanding of what a Military is, I mean what it really is inside and out.

 

A military is a military for it's entire existence, there is no "part-time military". I know you can't understand what would happen to a military if it was only "Part-Time" because you have never served but it would fall apart.

 

I believe we've already covered the fact that the military of the United States has it's Exploratory functions in space, as does Russia, Canada and how many other countries militaries?

 

Oh by the way, did I mention that Starfleet's charter declares Starfleet to be a Military?

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I have one question: If this is all true, why did Gene Roddenberry, the create of Star Trek claim that Starfleet wasn't military?

 

You have a very convincing argument and you allmost have me convinced, it's just a few minor things that makes me think other wise. Would a military organization spend more time explorring space and going on scientific missions then they would conducting militaristic missions?

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I have one question: If this is all true, why did Gene Roddenberry, the create of Star Trek claim that Starfleet wasn't military?

 

You have a very convincing argument and you allmost have me convinced, it's just a few minor things that makes me think other wise.  Would a military organization spend more time explorring space and going on scientific missions then they would conducting militaristic missions?

Why is exploring not "militaristic"? To answer your question, the Military does "military things" all the time no matter if it is peace time or war time. There is constant training, constant vigilance. A soldier is a soldier 24 hours a day, awake or asleep. In peace or in war.

 

So in the process of exploring on Apollo 15, the all Air Force crew that flew that mission and walked on the moon to explore and expand human knowledge were still military men as they explored. The all Navy crew of Apollo 12 were still military while they explored the moon too. There are civilian aspects of NASA as well though, Apollo 11 for example. Neil Armstrong was a civilian (Former military) when he walked on the moon. The difference though is that Neil Armstrong wore no uniform, he was not Military. Buzz Aldrin however was a Col. in the Air Force so he wore a uniform. Mr. Armstrong and Col. Aldrin.

 

Again I point out Starfleet's charter proclaiming them as the Military arm of the Federation. Gene's intentions may ave been for a "Non-Military" entity but that's not what he got.

 

Starfleet IS military, and "Military" is NOT a bad word.

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She is still the first officer for sure! you see, technically, she doesn't hold any rank with Starfleet but they allow her the rank of 1st officer because she has the experince that Archer and any other Starfleet memeber lacks. She is what a 1st officer should be, a second voice....and a science officer to eliminate the first officer syndrome

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I looked up military in the dictionary and it said:

of or relating to the armed forces or war.

so i looked up armed forces and it said:

all the military forces of a nation or nations.

so reading that you would go back to military and then back to armed forces and get into a dictionary paradox. :dude:

 

I need a new dictionary. :(

 

I think starfleet is an organization ruled by the federation that does a lot of military things in space but also does a lot of stuff what the United Nations would do like when they had to deliver a special grain to a planet. (TOS:the Trouble with Tribbles) and when they had to keep the core of a planet molten to safe it from solidifying and destroying life on the planet (TNG: Inheritance). I think its a mix between Military, what the UN does and explorers.

Edited by thedoctor

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I think starfleet is an organization ruled by the federation that does a lot of military things in space but also does a lot of stuff what the United Nations would do like when they had to deliver a special grain to a planet. (TOS:the Trouble with Tribbles) and when they had to keep the core of a planet molten to safe it from solidifying and destroying life on the planet (TNG: Inheritance). I think its a mix between Military, what the UN does and explorers.

You're mixing two different entities here. Starfleet is the military branch of the Federation. When the Federation needs something done like protecting Grain on Shermans Planet they use their military (Star Fleet). The UN is a good example to give but the UN itself doesn't have a Military force, rather it relys on it's member countries militaries to carrie out it's missions when needed.

 

I'll quote this which also is further up in this thread:

 

http://ussforce.topcities.com/starfleet_charter.htm

 

This is quoted from the website above:

 

Article I: Establishment/Purpose

 

Section 1:  There is hereby established a Starfleet interplanetary military force, to be under the direct cognizance of the Federation Council and President. If there is no current Federation Council, Starfleet will assume that role until one is created.

 

Like it or not (and I know there are some that don't like it) Starfleet is a Military.

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You mean like the US Military that's run by the Civilian government? What's the difference?

No, I mean, could Starfleet be a military organization run by civilians, as in, instead of "soldiers", we'd have "civilians".

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You mean like the US Military that's run by the Civilian government? What's the difference?

No, I mean, could Starfleet be a military organization run by civilians, as in, instead of "soldiers", we'd have "civilians".

As VBG said, Starfleet is "run" by the United Federation of Planets which is "civilian". The head of Starfleet is accountable to the UFP.

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You mean like the US Military that's run by the Civilian government? What's the difference?

No, I mean, could Starfleet be a military organization run by civilians, as in, instead of "soldiers", we'd have "civilians".

What you suggest makes no sense. Is Starfleet a Military run by Civilians? Yes, but the US Army is a Military run by Civilians also. Your oposition to the military is causing you to grasp for straws that don't exist. Why can't you just accept the fact that Starfleet is the Military branch of the United Federation of Planets?

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You mean like the US Military that's run by the Civilian government? What's the difference?

No, I mean, could Starfleet be a military organization run by civilians, as in, instead of "soldiers", we'd have "civilians".

What you suggest makes no sense. Is Starfleet a Military run by Civilians? Yes, but the US Army is a Military run by Civilians also. Your oposition to the military is causing you to grasp for straws that don't exist. Why can't you just accept the fact that Starfleet is the Military branch of the United Federation of Planets?

There is no militaristic opposition. It's just that sometimes Starfleet is portrayed as a civilization organization while at other times as a military.

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There is no militaristic opposition.  It's just that sometimes Starfleet is portrayed as a civilization organization while at other times as a military.

Personally I see opposition, I have seen it going back to almost March. And that's ok, people can ba opposed to the military.

 

You may have already done this in the past but I don't want to go digging back through the archives. Give a few examples of Starfleet being portrayed as a Civilian organization.

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You're mixing two different entities here. Starfleet is the military branch of the Federation. When the Federation needs something done like protecting Grain on Shermans Planet they use their military (Star Fleet). The UN is a good example to give but the UN itself doesn't have a Military force, rather it relys on it's member countries militaries to carrie out it's missions when needed.

 

So that would make the Federation the more like the UN. Except planets instead of nations.

I'm quite fine with thinking Starfleet is military. The thing is they ask questions first and shoot only if they have to. I'm fine with that.

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You're mixing two different entities here. Starfleet is the military branch of the Federation. When the Federation needs something done like protecting Grain on Shermans Planet they use their military (Star Fleet). The UN is a good example to give but the UN itself doesn't have a Military force, rather it relys on it's member countries militaries to carrie out it's missions when needed.

 

So that would make the Federation the more like the UN. Except planets instead of nations.

I'm quite fine with thinking Starfleet is military. The thing is they ask questions first and shoot only if they have to. I'm fine with that.

Yes, I see the Federation as an Interplanetary UN, even the flag is similar to the UN flag.

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unflagweb.jpgfedflag.gif

I think the UFP flag is based on the UNs flag.

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You mean like the US Military that's run by the Civilian government? What's the difference?

No, I mean, could Starfleet be a military organization run by civilians, as in, instead of "soldiers", we'd have "civilians".

What you suggest makes no sense. Is Starfleet a Military run by Civilians? Yes, but the US Army is a Military run by Civilians also. Your oposition to the military is causing you to grasp for straws that don't exist. Why can't you just accept the fact that Starfleet is the Military branch of the United Federation of Planets?

There is no militaristic opposition. It's just that sometimes Starfleet is portrayed as a civilization organization while at other times as a military.

When is it shown as a civilian organization? Starfleet has many branches to it but it's all under the same structure as military. Starfleet Research had Admiral Haftel in TNG. The Daystrom Institute had Starfleet military structure - Commander Bruce Maddox.

 

I was just thinking about the TNG episode "The Lower Decks", the waiter in Ten Forward made a comment that he was civilian personnel.

 

Please give some examples when it was depicted as a civilian organization.

 

 

Thedoctor, that's for putting those images up. I had never even thought to compare the logos but you're right, they are amazingly similar.

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There has never been a doubt in my mind that Star Fleet was military. It's rank structure, procedures and customs all define it as a military organization. It's not the military as we know it in our century though. The first thing that struck me is that they do not salute. Various navies in the past (british navy) had a dual role of exploration and combat.

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Starfleet has a military structure, but it certainly isn't military as we know it today, at least not in my opinion.

Starfleet fights wars, has an academy a rank structure, promotions, court martials, they distinguish themselves as spearate from Civilians, they answer to the President of the Federation. What's different from the US (or other countries) militaries?

 

Plus the Federation charter proclaims Starfleet to be Military.

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I've put lots of thought into this, and here is my conclussion:

 

Starfleet is a military ("The Expanse" messes this up, though), but their goals are not that of today's military. While they do defend those in need and go on the offensive when neccessary, I'd like to believe that Starfleet's main goal is to explore the galaxy, go on scientific missions, and aid those in need.

 

What do you guys think?

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I've put lots of thought into this, and here is my conclussion:

 

Starfleet is a military ("The Expanse" messes this up, though), but their goals are not that of today's military.  While they do defend those in need and go on the offensive when neccessary, I'd like to believe that Starfleet's main goal is to explore the galaxy, go on scientific missions, and aid those in need.

 

What do you guys think?

One difference could be that Starfleet would probably never try to conquer another country with military force, that has been done many times in our time for many different reasons. I agree that Starfleet is a military, however they are not the same as the military we have today.

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