WOLF 359

[fredbroca 0]

Sorry if this topic has come up before but this has bothered me for a long time. My question is in all most every show of Voyager that deals with humans disconnected from the borg they say that they were captured at wolf 359. How is this so? There was only one cube and that was destroyed. So did all these people end up in the delta quadrant as borg and the problem could have been fixed so easily they just had to say that they had been captured when a borg ship attacked their ship. What do you think?

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I just assumed the the Cube had a small Sphere that was sent to the collective after the battle of Wolf 359, before meeting up with the Enterprise again.

[vold 0]

not everything is shown on screen in detail, theres lots of reasons for their survival

 

1. a Sphere escaping or sent off earlier.

2. Survivors, few Drones may have survived in the grave & escaped with any means possible.

 

That's all I can think so far.

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

not everything is shown on screen in detail, theres lots of reasons for their survival

 

1. a Sphere escaping or sent off earlier.

2. Survivors, few Drones may have survived in the grave & escaped with any means possible.

 

That's all I can think so far.

Right. Remeber this?

 

Picard-"Yes, I Remember You. You Were There The Whole Time...But..That Ship...And All The Borg On It Were Destroyed."

 

Borg Queen-"You Think In Such 3-Diminsional Terms. How Small You've Become."

[vold 0]

Not quite, to me what she ment is, she wasn't there at all.

 

Not physically anyway. She's only there with Locutus, mentally. While she's safe at her Unicomplex.

 

After the Cube got destroyed by a trick, she then sets off to earth in a Cube to head to earth later, which took some time to reach there, 6 years or less.

 

that's what she ment by 3D terms, Picard thought she's there physically "3D" but she's not, so she's dissapointed on how small Picard's thinking have become.

 

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

Ya Know...I Never Looked At That Way. It Makes Sense.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

not everything is shown on screen in detail, theres lots of reasons for their survival

 

1. a Sphere escaping or sent off earlier.

2. Survivors, few Drones may have survived in the grave & escaped with any means possible.

 

That's all I can think so far.

Right. Remeber this?

 

Picard-"Yes, I Remember You. You Were There The Whole Time...But..That Ship...And All The Borg On It Were Destroyed."

 

Borg Queen-"You Think In Such 3-Diminsional Terms. How Small You've Become."

I thought she ment her body was destroyed, while her consciencous survived within the collective. In ST:FC, I just assumed that she "uploaded" a copy of herself into the sphere incase the Cube's invasion failed, they could send a sphere to assimilate the past.

[vold 0]

My opinion is that she was safe in the Unicomplex fiddling with Locutus's mind, later when the Feds trick them to regenerate the Queen was aware something is wrong, & realised the trick so she innitiated the self-destrut to prevent any tech. stealing.

 

Later as she's propably already on her way to earth to meet Locutus in person & see how goes the assimilation personally she had a change of plans since the 1st Cube failed so she plan to do it herself since she's already on the way, but the Cube is destroyed, then a new plan came to mind.

 

A plan that have something to do with the Drone's message to the collective in "Enterprise" she knows she has to do something to complete the "temporal loop" as Borg, they play their part fairly as to knowing they went to the past once, she'd have to do it again to complete the loop. "Its a long story of an explaination"

 

then came to ST:FC, etc etc.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

My opinion is that she was safe in the Unicomplex fiddling with Locutus's mind, later when the Feds trick them to regenerate the Queen was aware something is wrong, & realised the trick so she innitiated the self-destrut to prevent any tech. stealing.

 

Later as she's propably already on her way to earth to meet Locutus in person & see how goes the assimilation personally she had a change of plans since the 1st Cube failed so she plan to do it herself since she's already on the way, but the Cube is destroyed, then a new plan came to mind.

 

A plan that have something to do with the Drone's message to the collective in "Enterprise" she knows she has to do something to complete the "temporal loop" as Borg, they play their part fairly as to knowing they went to the past once, she'd have to do it again to complete the loop. "Its a long story of an explaination"

 

then came to ST:FC, etc etc.

Actually, the Borg never got a message from the 22nd century until ST:FC alterred the timeline.

[vold 0]

[Actually, the Borg never got a message from the 22nd century until ST:FC alterred the timeline.

Actually they did receive the message, its a temporal loop thing

 

how something happens even though not taken action yet. Which also explains why humans are designated Species 5618, such a low number. So meaning that we are found around that time, 2152 where the Drones awaken & assimilated some human scientists, & sent the message to the collective to inform them about us, but ofcourse the message will be a bit blurr corrupted, whatever the right word is.

 

:borgqueen:

 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

[Actually, the Borg never got a message from the 22nd century until ST:FC alterred the timeline.

Actually they did receive the message, its a temporal loop thing

 

how something happens even though not taken action yet. Which also explains why humans are designated Species 5618, such a low number. So meaning that we are found around that time, 2152 where the Drones awaken & assimilated some human scientists, & sent the message to the collective to inform them about us, but ofcourse the message will be a bit blurr corrupted, whatever the right word is.

 

:borgqueen:

 

The future cannot come before the past, thus a "timeloop" without a beginning is impossible.

 

In the original timeline, NX-01 Enterprise never runs into the Borg, the NX-01 might have had a different name, 200 years later, the Borg come to Federation and Romulan space in search of assimilation-worthy technology and culture, then ST:FC happens.

 

In the alterred timeline, the NX-01 runs into the Borg, the NX-01 is probably named after the Entreprise-E, 200 years later, the Borg get the coordinates for Earth and begin assimilating some colonies to find out more, then ST:FC happens again and the timeloop begins.

[vold 0]

future can happen before past. Its shown many times in Trek, especially Voyager "Parallax" is the best example.

 

anyway there’s so many signs as to why ST:FC must happen.

 

1. Q said humans are advancing too fast then should, in other words in this story reality Coachrane was not suppose to make first Contact, but thanks to future intervention Coachrane's ship didn't blow up or just drift away in space but instead they made the contact they should not have yet.

 

2. Q also said time is not linear. Later in the 29th & 31st century humans come to realize that too.

 

3. Borg came to the Alpha Quadrant too early in TNG "Neutral Zone" the Borg already reach to a human outpost, assimilated it & go away because they realized Species 5618 is nothing special. Until "Q Who?" with Q's snapping the Borg are intrigued as to how a low species like us are able to travel 7000 lightyears in a second hence their interest on us is back again & the Queen decided to have an equal from 1 of us. "Picard" But of course that time she didn't know it was Q who did the 7000 light-year jump.

 

4. 7 of 9 already knows that the Borg attended in human's First Contact.

 

5. 7's parents heard about the future cyborg through Coachrane's speech like Archer did & decided to explore this rumors, they then learn their name by 1 of the El-Eurians "Guinan's people" went to find a Cube found 1 follow to the Delta Quadrant & got assimilated later.

 

6. The discovery of the Borg Transwarp Coil, though temporarily before the Borg took it away, comes to TOS's experiment with Transwarp at whatever movie that is.

 

Phew, the signs are out there, it just needs some rationalizing.

 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

future can happen before past. Its shown many times in Trek, especially Voyager "Parallax" is the best example.

 

anyway there’s so many signs as to why ST:FC must happen.

 

1. Q said humans are advancing too fast then should, in other words in this story reality Coachrane was not suppose to make first Contact, but thanks to future intervention Coachrane's ship didn't blow up or just drift away in space but instead they made the contact they should not have yet.

Who's to say Cochrane wouldn't have made contact with the Vulcans had the Borg not interferred? In my opinion, just happened "differently" in ST:FC.

 

2. Q also said time is not linear. Later in the 29th & 31st century humans come to realize that too.

Time being linear is relative, it's a matter of how you experrience. For Q, time isn't linear, where as for Humans, time is linear.

 

3. Borg came to the Alpha Quadrant too early in TNG "Neutral Zone" the Borg already reach to a human outpost, assimilated it & go away because they realized Species 5618 is nothing special. Until "Q Who?" with Q's snapping the Borg are intrigued as to how a low species like us are able to travel 7000 lightyears in a second hence their interest on us is back again & the Queen decided to have an equal from 1 of us. "Picard" But of course that time she didn't know it was Q who did the 7000 light-year jump.

How do you know the Borg's pressense in "The Neutral Zone" wasn't a reconnasiance mission? Keep in mind that in VOY "Scorpion", only 8 years later, we saw Species 8472, so Humans being 5618 fits with the 24th century. I think you're making connections where their are none. In my opinion, the movie ST:FC alterred the timeline where the Borg learn of Humanity through a message from the 22nd century instead of a reconnassiance mission.

 

4. 7 of 9 already knows that the Borg attended in human's First Contact.

She did not reveal this till after ST:FC alterred the timeline.

 

5. 7's parents heard about the future cyborg through Coachrane's speech like Archer did & decided to explore this rumors, they then learn their name by 1 of the El-Eurians "Guinan's people" went to find a Cube found 1 follow to the Delta Quadrant & got assimilated later.

That's an assumption. It was said they sought out the Borg, whom they learned about from rumors and hear say, probably the El-Aurrians.

 

6. The discovery of the Borg Transwarp Coil, though temporarily before the Borg took it away, comes to TOS's experiment with Transwarp at whatever movie that is.

What the heck? That never happened.

[vold 0]

All the pinions here are to see how things all fit.

 

The entire story is about 1 single universe's story, about how it all came to be, etc.

so no matter what happens no matter how extraordinary or altering, its still the same universe.

 

Q was refering to humans about the linear thing too. check in "All Good Things" again

 

about the Transwarp, its in 1 of the old movies where Scotty participate at the research, but it failed. they not ready for such high tech.

 

PS: things said in shows can't be taken literally, Sometimes they say they first to this or that, then later another part says someone else did this or that, we have to stick with latest facts not the past. If we stick with the past then lots of things that were wrong, stays wrong.

 

Like about the "Galactic Barrier" theres no such thing, so that idea is cut of in future series of TOS.

 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

All the pinions here are to see how things all fit.

 

The entire story is about 1 single universe's story, about how it all came to be, etc.

so no matter what happens no matter how extraordinary or altering, its still the same universe.

Agreed.

 

Q was refering to humans about the linear thing too. check in "All Good Things" again

Do you know what linear means? It relation to time, it means we live in a "forward" motion. We can't be in the past, present, and future at once. We were in the past, we are in the present, and we will be in the future. These linear restraints don't apply to Q. Maybe in the future, they won't apply to Humans, I believe that's what Q was trying to tell Picard, but for now, they apply.

 

about the Transwarp, its in 1 of the old movies where Scotty participate at the research, but it failed. they not ready for such high tech.

I see no connection between the Borg and the Excelsior's experrimental Transwarp drive. Not everything in the Trek universe has to be interconnected, keep in mind how vast the galaxy is.

 

PS: things said in shows can't be taken literally, Sometimes they say they first to this or that, then later another part says someone else did this or that, we have to stick with latest facts not the past. If we stick with the past then lots of things that were wrong, stays wrong.  Like about the "Galactic Barrier" theres no such thing, so that idea is cut of in future series of TOS.

There's this little thing called continuity. I expect some level of continuity in a TV show, TOS is the exception becuase that was back when continuity was not an issue as the shows of the time were a stand-alone episode of the week. Of coarse things like the "Galactic Barrier" need to be changed, but nothing in the whole Borg arc needs that sort of change.

[vold 0]

That's my whole point, they didn't made those things for these new situations, but since the new situations are added, we have to try & fit in with the old ones to make it look nice.

 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

That's my whole point, they didn't made those things for these new situations, but since the new situations are added, we have to try & fit in with the old ones to make it look nice. 

 

And that's my point. The galaxy is far too large to try and have everything interconnected. If this were, say, The X Files, then it'd be a mess.

[deagletime 1]

getting back to the original point of the thread...when the cube at w 359 assimilated fed captains...their consciousness were interconnected and probed by the entire collective regardsless of whether they were in the alpha or delta quadrant... so in essence..the even thought the cube was in the alpha quadrant, the collective is still interconnected (ie drones in alpha and delta quad) which would explain how the queens "essencse" could have been "downloaded" to another body in the delta quadrant

 

an example of such is in the unimatrix zero episode where seven and her boyfriend are still able to meet in the unimatrix though their physical bodies are in different quadrants.. her boyfriends was stationed on a scout ship in the gamma quadrant if i recall..

 

however...as in FC...a cube does need to be present to serve as a borg "modem" and thats why the seperated drones tried to set up a signal beacon on the 1701-e deflector array and therefore that is also why the 21st century borgs in ENT were unable to contact the 21st century borgs....it does make sense that a signal sent with 21t century technology could take oh say 300 years to reach the delta quadrant..and that would explain why the borgs intrest in earth in the 24th century

[vold 0]

ok, but 1st of all it took around 200 years or less to reach the nearest Borg Vessel.

 

Which I presume is the same vessel that attacked Guinan's world, & the 2 Outpost at the Neutral Zone & latter met the Ent-D when Q flung them towards that Cube & also attacked at Wolf 359. all the same Cube.

 

So much problem from 1 Cube just because those scientists woke up those Drones.

 

2nd yes they can meet each other in the minds "Its a Hive-mind thing", as I said also. I don't understand why some people can't understand this, there's 1 fella I met in his site he kept saying no such thing, even though there are lots of facts saying there is such thing. :blink:

 

To give further examples of the hive-mind handy work. Dark Frontier & Endgame, where the Queen is freely able to contact 7 when she's regenerating.

 

:blink:

 

:lol:

[LordOfTheBorg 1]

hmm, looking at my name, you think i should know alot about borg.

NEWFLASH i dont

 

MISTER T

:cool: :devil: :blink:

[Guest Guest]

LordOfTheBorg

 

I hope you're not refering to me, because I'm not refering to you either.

 

the fella I'm talking about is from another site.

 

just checking :)

 

:)

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

getting back to the original point of the thread...when the cube at w 359 assimilated fed captains...their consciousness were interconnected and probed by the entire collective regardsless of whether they were in the alpha or delta quadrant...  so in essence..the even thought the cube was in the alpha quadrant, the collective is still interconnected (ie drones in alpha and delta quad) which would explain how the queens "essencse" could have been "downloaded" to another body in the delta quadrant

 

an example of such is in the unimatrix zero episode where seven and her boyfriend are still able to meet in the unimatrix though their physical bodies are in different quadrants.. her boyfriends was stationed on a scout ship in the gamma quadrant if i recall.. 

 

however...as in FC...a cube does need to be present to serve as a borg "modem" and thats why the seperated drones tried to set up a signal beacon on the 1701-e deflector array  and therefore that is also why the 21st century borgs in ENT were unable to contact the 21st century borgs....it does make sense that a signal sent with 21t century technology could take oh say 300 years to reach the delta quadrant..and that would explain why the borgs intrest in earth in the 24th century

Well, I'm one whom believes that you can alter the past without creating the paradox. Anywho, after the timeline was alterred by ST:FC, I believe that's how it would have gone down. :)

 

Also, I'd like to believe that the Queen can have her body built anywhere, anytime, and in multiple places at once. She's one individual in Trek who can truely be in more than one place at once. I wonder how she proccesses that? :)

[Cramase 0]

Also, I'd like to believe that the Queen can have her body built anywhere, anytime, and in multiple places at once.  She's one individual in Trek who can truely be in more than one place at once.  I wonder how she proccesses that? :)

Well that has to be true. Consider that one of the borg queen's bodies is destroyed in ST:FC (stardate 50893.5), but Endgame (The final VOY episode) occurs on stardate 54973.4, after ST:FC takes place. Therefore the borg queen must be able to transfer her conciousness to more than one body, designed to whatever specifications she wants.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Also, I'd like to believe that the Queen can have her body built anywhere, anytime, and in multiple places at once.  She's one individual in Trek who can truely be in more than one place at once.  I wonder how she proccesses that? :)

Well that has to be true. Consider that one of the borg queen's bodies is destroyed in ST:FC (stardate 50893.5), but Endgame (The final VOY episode) occurs on stardate 54973.4, after ST:FC takes place. Therefore the borg queen must be able to transfer her conciousness to more than one body, designed to whatever specifications she wants.

Well, the Borg Queen has been seen to die 3 times.

Star Trek: First Contact

VOY "Dark Frontier"

VOY "Endgame"

 

In "Dark Frontier", she was onbaord her diamond-ship which was destroyed when Voyager sealed a transwarp conduit. Her ship came out in firey pieces.

[Cramase 0]

I missed that episode unfortunately. I'm waiting for VOY to be reshown over here so I can catch the ones I have missed Edited January 12, 2004 by Cramase

[vold 0]

Not exactly, for 1 thing being anywhere she wants in that manner isn't their style, she already can do that in the Collective's Hive-Mind, having a physical body anywhere is pointless. :)

 

about new Queens. Its just that, they are new/replacements.

:borgqueen: > :borgqueen:

 

When a Queen dies, they just choose a drone, any female drone & disembodied that drone leaving only her brain & download all past knowledge of previous Queens of the past. Typically its a new individual with old memories. This new Queen won't be chasing down Locutus like the old Queen because she has learn her lesson.

 

& about how many deaths, We're not sure how many Queens died before encountering the Federation, but those that died by Federation hands are only 2 not 3. :o

 

She wasn't on the Diamond at the time, she's smarter then that. She just stay in the Unicomplex & sent off the Diamond to engage the Delta Flyer. The only time this new Queen [a female Species 125] dies is at "Endgame" :)

 

For 1 thing, this show will definitely show the Queen dying if they intended her to die, that's the show's style. If they don't show a death scene of her dying then there’s a higher possibility that she's still alive. That's how this Trek shows work so far. :)

 

Another reason why this is the same Queen is her same impactuation [word? Spelling?] for 7 of 9. If this is indeed a new Queen after "Dark Frontier" then its more likely she should have abandon that notion because it have failed.

 

B)

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Not exactly, for 1 thing being anywhere she wants in that manner isn't their style, she already can do that in the Collective's Hive-Mind, having a physical body anywhere is pointless.  :unsure:

I guess you got a point there. B)

 

about new Queens. Its just that, they are new/replacements. 

:borgqueen: > :borgqueen:

I allways thought of each new queen as a new body and cloned upper body for the Queen consciencous.

 

When a Queen dies, they just choose a drone, any female drone & disembodied that drone leaving only her brain & download all past knowledge of previous Queens of the past. Typically its a new individual with old memories. This new Queen won't be chasing down Locutus like the old Queen because she has learn her lesson.

Actually, from ST:FC, we saw that the Queen's brain is mostly artificial. They have the same actress play the Queen each time, the only reason why Sussanna Thompson played the Queen in VOY was becuase Alice Krige was unavailable, but we were to think it was the same Queen. My theory is that when she dies, she doesn't construct a new body till she feels it neccessary. When she does built a new body, her head, neck, and shoulder area are cloned.

 

& about how many deaths, We're not sure how many Queens died before encountering the Federation, but those that died by Federation hands are only 2 not 3.  :o

Well, all we know is that the Queen has been seen to die 3 times. She just keeps coming back like the nasty liquid guy in Terminator 2.

 

She wasn't on the Diamond at the time, she's smarter then that. She just stay in the Unicomplex & sent off the Diamond to engage the Delta Flyer. The only time this new Queen [a female Species 125] dies is at "Endgame" 

Well, her "chamber" is within the Borg Diamond ship, this is why I think she died in "Dark Frontier"... again.

 

For 1 thing, this show will definitely show the Queen dying if they intended her to die, that's the show's style. If they don't show a death scene of her dying then there’s a higher possibility that she's still alive. That's how this Trek shows work so far. 

True, but as I said before, the only reason why I think she died was becuase her chamber is in her personal diamond ship, and she took her personal ship to chase after the Delta Flyer.

 

Another reason why this is the same Queen is her same impactuation [word? Spelling?] for 7 of 9. If this is indeed a new Queen after "Dark Frontier" then its more likely she should have abandon that notion because it have failed.

Well, I feel that each incarnation of the Queen, is infact, the same character, only with a different body. B)

[vold 0]

Its definately not a clone, because if its a clone then she should be Species 0 or 1 as being the 1st Queen's species all the way.

 

her brain is inside the metal skull. Partly machine like any Borg ofcourse :unsure:

 

There's an Queen Alcove on every vessels, so we can'tjudge that she's in 1 because theres 1. I still said they died 2 times only by Fed hands.

 

The reason they look so alike is because of their 95% body alteration when creating a new Queen.

 

Here's a thought, maybe the next Queen is more like a Princess. Most knowledge are gone & maybe protocols [or something] too, this new "Queen" is a bit confuse as to what to do. Out of character. A more peaceful type. After a while the Collective will decide to rid of her & create a new Queen as replacement because she is impeding efficiency. But the Queen did not die. Instead was taken by the Rogue Borgs "Freed Drones" & become their Queen.

 

strange idea but I like it.

 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Its definately not a clone, because if its a clone then she should be Species 0 or 1 as being the 1st Queen's species all the way. :unsure:

Well, the Borg Queen is from Species 1**, right? Well, in ST:FC, it's implied that she's from the species that created the Borg. It's a little confusing... Each time, she acts as if she were the same person. Maybe the a Queen wasn't needed till they assimilated Species 1** where a volunteer decided the collective needed order?

 

her brain is inside the metal skull. Partly machine like any Borg ofcourse

Hmm... I never thought the brain-like machine seen in ST:FC might be a shell.

 

There's an Queen Alcove on every vessels, so we can'tjudge that she's in 1 because theres 1. I still said they died 2 times only by Fed hands.

Are you sure? I don't think we've seen a Queen alcove on a Borg vessel. I'd just assume they'd build one when needed. As for "Dark Frontier", I was more under the impression that that was her lair, and not just a "Queen Alcove", which is why I'm lead to believe she died in this episode, in the physical sense that is.

 

The reason they look so alike is because of their 95% body alteration when creating a new Queen.

I still think she clones herself.

 

Here's a thought, maybe the next Queen is more like a Princess. Most knowledge are gone & maybe protocols [or something] too, this new "Queen" is a bit confuse as to what to do. Out of character. A more peaceful type. After a while the Collective will decide to rid of her & create a new Queen as replacement because she is impeding efficiency. But the Queen did not die. Instead was taken by the Rogue Borgs "Freed Drones" & become their Queen.

 

strange idea but I like it. :o

Fascinating! B)

 

Wether the Queen is a new drone each time or being cloned, I think it makes fascinating debates and I hope they explore this the next time we get a post-VOY Borg story.

[vold 0]

That's the thing about new Queens, they got the old one's memories, all they need is a new body from whatever proper species & download the memories into that new Queen.

 

I believe from the very beginning they already have a Queen, reason is to watch the progress of their idea.

 

:hat: < watching over a future heir of santa < :unsure:

 

Whoever the original species is, must have wanted an individual to watch the progress whether they are achieving their goal or not. But ofcourse there could be some errors later, or the original programmers did not do a proper job in their priorities.

 

Example from a game:

A gasious race who can't leave their world is offered Probes to explore the galaxy for them, they made a mistake in programming the probe's multiplying habit too high that whenever they encounter new species they are overwritten to scramble the ship for extra material to produce more Probes. lol

 

As for the Species 125 is an example they use different people to make the new Queen, because their original race should be 0 or 1 only, a single digit. since the latest Queen we know is a 125, that means they use other Drones to be a new Queen meaning its not a clone.