D'Nile ain't just a river on terra!

[welfconfed 2]

In not only the TOS but through out the startrek saga we have seen examples of Vulcan hyper-emotionalism, what I mean is the over powering emotions that almost pushed the Vulcan race to extinction are more powerful than human emotions. so if Spock is 1/2 human shouldn't he find the source of his emotional struggle his vulcan and not his human heritage? Is this a sign of racial self loathing? We have example after example of a Vulcan superiority complex(Racism?) even from Spocks father.

 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. While Spock's Vulcan emotional side is volitile, his human emotions would be less destructive and more likely to surface due. As for Vulcans repressing their emotions, that's how they saved their race. How is that racist?

[Goose 0]

Stardate:21425.6

 

 

 

What he means by racist is that the vulcans believe they are better than humans and anyother "emotionally handicapped" species.

 

Yeh it seemed to me at times Spock really hated his human half.Thought he didnt really show it you know he had to be somewhat ashamed of it

[welfconfed 2]

I think Vulcan attitudes towards humans can best be shown by two examples,1st in amok time listen to the vulcan official t'pau (a woman who refused an invitation to join the federation counsel..I wonder why?),when she first makes a commit to Spock about "it is said thine vulcan blood is thin.." (a reference to spock being a 'half breed'?),and then with a mix of contempt and disgust she continues by saying "are thee Vulcan or are thee HUMAN!"(listen to how she said Human)

2nd in the final frontier when we see an image of a young Sarek as his wife Amanda gives birth to their son ,the vulcan midwife hands the baby to him "Sarek,your son",and taking the child in his hands and looking down at his baby boy says with, profound disappointment, "..so human.."

This might not reflect on all Vulcans but it is disturbing,when one considers the effect on Spock.

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

^^Yeah, I Have Noticed All That. Vulcans Always Do Seem To Look Down..Well All Other Species. It Does Seem That They Do Think They're Better Than Everyone Else. And Spock's Own Comments About His Two Sides Show That He Even Thinks So, To Some Degree.

 

I'm Not Sure About Tuvok Though. He Sometimes May Have Shown He Felt He Was Suoerior..But It Seemed He Had More Respect For Others Than That.

[Big_Steve 0]

Is there something wrong in having pride in who and what you are? We've lost a lot in this souless, politically correct world.

[Goose 0]

Is there something wrong in having pride in who and what you are? We've lost a lot in this souless, politically correct world.

Stardate:21427.9

 

 

 

But there is a difference between having pride in who and what you are and acting like who and what you are is better than what somebody else is.

[Big_Steve 0]

Is there something wrong in having pride in who and what you are? We've lost a lot in this souless, politically correct world.

Stardate:21427.9

 

 

 

But there is a difference between having pride in who and what you are and acting like who and what you are is better than what somebody else is.

But I don't think the vulcans acted like they were better ... at least not in mixed company. We can't play Big Brother and judge them on things they do and say in their own home ... this is what I'm getting at.

[Abakai2003 0]

I think that Sarek has the biggest problem in that he dose show obvios distaste for humans yet he married 2 of them this may be some attempt to prove himself to himself or was this mabey some experiment on his part?

[welfconfed 2]

Is there something wrong in having pride in who and what you are? We've lost a lot in this souless, politically correct world.

Stardate:21427.9

 

 

 

But there is a difference between having pride in who and what you are and acting like who and what you are is better than what somebody else is.

But I don't think the vulcans acted like they were better ... at least not in mixed company. We can't play Big Brother and judge them on things they do and say in their own home ... this is what I'm getting at.

What does it matter were it toke place their place,our place, at a targ wrestling contest....if they behaved in an inappropriate manner its still wrong.

As for having pride, I can trace my bloodlines back nearly 1200 years to the aristocracies of 4 european countrys (even have a holy roman emperor in there ) and Im extremely proud of the achievements of my ancestors, but to treat others with contempt because they are from a different culture or race is despicable by human standards not to mention the lofty, unemotional, and enlightened standards that the Vulcans claim to represent.

I understand your position and Im about as far from politically correct as your going to find but I think in this case the Vulcans are hypocrites.

Edited January 10, 2004 by welfconfed

[Big_Steve 0]

Is there something wrong in having pride in who and what you are? We've lost a lot in this souless, politically correct world.

Stardate:21427.9

 

 

 

But there is a difference between having pride in who and what you are and acting like who and what you are is better than what somebody else is. :)

But I don't think the vulcans acted like they were better ... at least not in mixed company. We can't play Big Brother and judge them on things they do and say in their own home ... this is what I'm getting at.

What does it matter were it toke place their place,our place, at a targ wrestling contest....if they behaved in an inappropriate manner its still wrong.

It matters greatly, I don't care if you are the biggest racest on the planet in your own home ... as long as you check it at the door when you leave, it doesn't bother me.

[welfconfed 2]

.

It matters greatly, I don't care if you are the biggest racest on the planet in your own home ... as long as you check it at the door when you leave, it doesn't bother me.

I understand what you mean and I'm not suggesting some Orwellian, politically correct,thought police attitude here. What I'm getting at is the double standard that Vulcans use. Its as if a self professed activist against racism acted outraged because he's son was getting married and invited a person from another race to be his best man ( thus my reference to "Amok Time"), or a man married a woman from another race and as he stands in the delivery room can only commit on his disappointment that his child looks like 'those people' (my reference to Final Frontier) My view is believe whatever you want, so long as you don't try to impose your beliefs on me, or expect me to abide by a standard you refuse to abide by. ( my comment about the Vulcans being hypocrites)

The Vulcans like to pretend they are more enlightened and unemotional (politically correct) than we poor humans with our emotional 'immaturity', our fondness for red meat, an our general inability to sit down, shut up,and let the Vulcans do the thinking,but the truth is they are in denial and the ones that suffer most are people like Spock, trapped between worlds.

[LadyNarana 0]

Has anyone here read "Spock's World?" I know it's not canon, but Kirk and McCoy (especially McCoy) really burst the whole planet's bubble on this very issue.

 

I've heard people (not here) speak of how McCoy is racist and unaccepting of Spock, and that's why they think Star Trek isn't as progressive as people say. I don't believe that. McCoy has problems with Spock, sure, but he still works with him and respects him. It's the same the other way around. Spock brings up human "inadequacies" more than once. (I don't see emotions as immaturity, necessarily. How we express them is another matter.) But the men truly end up as friends, even while not fully understanding their differences. I think part of the real lesson is that BOTH sides need to work on their opinions and attitudes - more "mature" or not. No side is right all of the time.

 

I also think part of the question is - Spock fights his human side for most of his TOS life before accepting it. Really, his "humanness" is part of what drives a wedge between him and his father. Sarek talks about being disappointed in Spock because of it. What did all of this do to poor Amanda? To have your husband and your son reject what you bring to their relationships has to hurt terribly. By the time Spock truly accepts his human half, it seems as if Sarek does as well.

 

Nobody, no matter their age, ever stops maturing...

[welfconfed 2]

I've read Spock's World and it's a great book. I would take what you said a step further and say that McCoy's comments to Spock are an attempt to force Spock to deal with his emotions, remember bones was responsible for the psychological as well as the physical well being of the crew and had records of the crews personality profiles. So I believe alot of McCoys grumpy out bursts were caculated to give Spock an emotional release ( the arguments) ,the funny thing is he did the same thing for Kirk, but in his case it was an attempt to get Kirk to open up to McCoy and let him know what was going on in his head.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the times Spock most often showed emotion (if even in a very slight way) and the times Kirk most often shared his thoughts were when each man was talking one on one with the Doctor.

The man was far smarter than he is given credit for and far wiser than either Kirk or Spock.

I would also say that you raise an excellent point about Amanda, as painful as it must have been for Spock, can you imagine what that poor woman went through,not to mention the strain of just living on Vulcan most of her adult life and despite it all she stayed by Sarek's side and excepted him, Spock and their world for what they were and what they couldn't be, now thats a strong and very loving woman.

[tbree_dVelnahr 0]

Let me put a spin on this, if I may. Consider this: In "Amok Time" T'Pau was not necessarily reacting to the guests Spock brings to the ceremonies specifically, but rather that their ways are to be kept closed in general. No one beyond another Vulcan, unless taking a direct part in said ceremony, would be regarded as welcome. "Art our ways for Outworlders, Spock?" She does not single out humans, any non-Vulcan would do. Now it is true that she seems to put an undue emphasis on the word human when speaking to Spock, but I do not agree this was a racial slur. Spock had a choice when he was young on which path to take. He chose the Vulcan Way, which meant he would abide by their philosophy and deny his emotions. That isn't always easy and given that he is also human, the strength might not always be in place to follow that Path so completely. We humans do tend to be impetuous. She was merely reminding him of his choice, just as Surak did in "The Savage Curtain".

 

As far as Sarek's remarks made at the time of Spock's birth (as noted in Star Trek V) who is to say his lament was anything more than the knowledge his son would have a tougher road than most? I do believe this is why he may have pushed his son toward the Vulcan Way, to strengthen him and help shield him from the bias he would likely encounter as a half-breed.

 

It is clear the Vulcans have a superior air, but I do not believe they hold us in contempt altogether. I just think they hold us at bay, knowing what loose canons we can be at times! That is not a demonstration of racism, but simply an awknowledgement of our foibles. They do practise what they preach, for they seem to accept us the way we are, nonetheless.

 

Just my two cents,

 

T'Bree

[A l t e r E g o 9]

This thread, (and the episode Amok Time) really rams home the point of the producers of ENT knowing what they were doing in how they represented Vulcan/Human relations of that time.