Time Travel

[removed 0]

In the STIV:TVH DVD there is a featurette on time travel. It says that travel into the future is principally possible, but they don't say anything on travel to the past. I know that it is theoretically impossible to travel back in time, but do any of you think that this will ever be possible?

[Celtic_Swimmer 0]

I think that the futher we go in the future the more realistis things become.. who says that in 5085 that people can't travel forwards in time or backwards.. *they have to get home some how*.. so indeed i think that somewhere down the timeline they will travel back in time.. and if they do can people leave notes for them to bring me.. lol..

 

 

-Lauren

[VaBeachGuy 12]

It's hard to imagine it as possible, but in 1776 I'm sure walking on the Moon was hard to imagine too.

[poguemahone 0]

The only thing i know is that if it happens it won't be in my lifetime or last i won't be the one to use it. I tried the Bill & Ted thing where you leave things for you self like say: I need to remeber to come back and leave self my 20 dollars on the table on March 6 2003 at 7 am. and that didn't happen so i guess i forgot. :) But really, i do think it's possible but if think about it, to me you couldn't change the past only view it, cuse to me if your there then, then you have always been there at that time, believe time happens windos, every second has it own time so if we could get a certain time we could back, and that time frame is always playing, so in a way on 19 June 1981 at 5:38 i'm being born even still, so if we could access that time window we could go back, or go forward. it's a paradox :)

[Celtic_Swimmer 0]

I agree all that just happens to raise more un-answerable questions!!..

 

However.. there is ALWAYS the possibility!!!

 

-Laur

[poguemahone 0]

I don't know, but i could have sworn i saw my self on the other side of the street once

[poguemahone 0]

trust me if i had a clone i'd know and do less work then i do now , and whole army of angry punk me's :)

[master_q 0]

First of all we are always time traveling in way and we are right now. It might be microscopic, but it happens according to special and general relativity.

 

 

One theory about creating a “time machine” is using a wormhole.

So first you would have to find a wormhole or you could make one but let’s just stick with finding one. (To do this you would need to be a very advance society that can basically do anything without violating physics) After you found/made one you need to manipulate it. You can manipulate your white hole that you shoot it out into space at the speed of light. Then let it come back. Because time went slower for that mouth the two mouths would be in a different time. (Remember Special reality) After that you need to open it and get in fast. This is because a wormhole only stays open for a fraction of a second. To open it and hold it open it would take enormous power, but it is possible. One way is to have exotic matter (negative energy) and that will open its positive energy.

 

If you read this you are probably saying that this is ‘unrealistic and I agree. But there are mini worm holes out there (at least we believe that there are). So if we could use exotic matter, then we might be able to expand on them and open them for the right amount of time, . . .

 

But remember you cannot go back before the time machine was invented. Relativity prevents this.

 

The one theory that I have stated about using a (mini)wormhole might not work because once the whitehole comes back the wormhole would destroy it self because of quantum gravity. (Quantum gravity is an area of physics that is trying to connect general relativity to quantum mechanics or the large to the small scale which when completed will be a major break through in physcis, cosmology, . . . ) This is because of the energy build ups and the pressure. While this process happens eventually everything would cross cancel each other. And no wormhole would exist.

 

Quantum gravity which does not seem to be that known (when I talk about it one the official board it does not seem that many know of it), but it is more likely that you heard about string theory or something to that nature. String theory is one idea to fill in the large and unknown gap that quantum gravity gives us. {But that’s another story}.

 

Grandfather Paradox Example:

NOW = You are alive and well. You go back in time (you = old)

PAST = You kill your self (young) from the past. Young dies, old vanishes

NOW = After this event has occurred you don’t exist. (or you died in the past)

WHY? You have to view time as a flow and not just frame by frame after an event has occurred it goes through the time line. So you never existed to go back in time.

The younger one of your self has to grow up to go back in time. (that’s the key thing). The young one needs to grow up to the NOW time to do this. So as a result of going back in time and killing your self you will not exist, but be dead in the THEN time. Then how could you of gone back?!

 

There are theories that say this is not true because you would be creating a new time line and that goes into different quantum realities ('the probability factor' . . . ) . . . (and so on)

 

Billiard-ball paradox:

 

There are two ways to explain it one of which is using the actual game (pool) and the other just the concept it self.

 

Imagine yourself playing pool and the pockets are your ‘time machine’ (or wormhole if you like). Once you shoot the ball in the pocket it goes back in time. When you do this we have a certain numerical mechanics of it (the angle, speed, direction, . . . . . {/vector}). Then once it goes in the pocket it comes out and at the same time the ball that was going to go back in time in the first place moves forth. When this is happening we have the same ball where one is moving out and one is moving in. Then we have them hit each other and cross cancel.

 

The counters to this are that through some math we find other vectors that don't cross cancel. (But there are problems with that idea too . . . .)

It really is all up to speculation in areas like this.

 

 

 

It is an interesting topic and a one of value to the scientific community to answer. For myself I’m kind of torn in the middle, but I am more leaning towards ‘no’ - you can’t go back in time with a time machine. The laws of physics could crumble below your feet. LOL

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[poguemahone 0]

YIKES.......well that wraps that up, thanks

[removed 0]

ya. there was a featurette with info close to what master_q says on the STIV DVD. master_q seems more in depth however. (or i wasn't paying much attention while watching the dvd version. lol)

[Xeroc 0]

Master_Q! Nice to see you here!

 

Anyway, first, before we work out paradoxes, we have to determine what type of time-travel exists! There are a few theories:

1. Nonexistent Time - "Time" does not exist as an actual substance - it is an entirely man-made concept, therefore, time travel is impossible - there is nowhere to travel to!

2. Static Time - Time exists, however, due to physical laws - time tavel is impossible

3. Editiable Time - Time is sort of "set in place" - changes don't affect many things and you can go back in time and change little. When you go back in time you edit the already existing time. This is the type of time favored in most time travel scenarios - For Example: "Back to the future"

4. Resetable Time - When you travel back in time, you "reset" the future - all the decisions and chance events reset. So, for instance, you travel back to World War II to historically observe it, right? To you great amazement Germany Wins! This could happen because the decisions of the pilots and troops and commanders are reset and perhaps this time Germany fights better! This is obviousy really bad! Time travel is very dangerous!

 

What is also interesting is that there are really some subsets of 3/4.

Subset A: Sequential time travel - Time travel happens in sequence - You can't tell yourself to leave you some money! The future hasn't happened yet!

Subset B: Simultaneous time travel - All time travel happens at the same time - you can tell yourself to leave some money for you (supposing you aren't broke in the future!)

 

Coming soon...how the paradoxes are solved in different versions of time travel

[removed 0]

Wow. I am intrigued. Are you guys (Master_q and Xeroc) mathematicians?

 

Very interesting stuff.

[Celtic_Swimmer 0]

Well to say the Least i am VERY Shocked and have no idea what i just read.. maybe its because i am still tired.. but u guys seem to know ur stuff.. ever try applying to Nasa??

 

-Laur

[master_q 0]

STIV DVD behind the scenes talk about realistic ways to time travel!?

(I have not had the chance to buy it. I’m buying DS9 now and that’s about $100 so I’m not going to make myself also buy the directors editions and this time)

 

 

 

Well of course you have to define what time is before you can get into paradoxes. And time we can define in what relativity tells us.

 

I think the one big thing is to think of it is in the subatomic world. In the sense that because of probability and things to that nature as how they would define a “repeat” as you “rewind the tape”. What I mean is you have to think about how you define the subatomic world. You can be very radical and believe it completely runs on probability (of course there would be ratios with smaller ones & larger ones). You might believe in parallel universes (and again tying in the “probability factor”) like David Deutsch. Then again you might believe that it acts completely statically (which does not have to mean linearly or anything to that nature). Well there are a lot of ways you can interpret “the world of the quantum”. A phrase that is really true is that “if you have not banged your head against the wall trying to understand the world of the quantum, then you never understood it in the first place”.

 

Well now you probably are asking to yourself “what’s the point?”. One question you can derive out of this is if somehow you went back in time (with out make any interferences) would the subatomic world act exactly like it did before? To some people it might seem like an easy answer, but when you throw in the ideas about quantum mechanics then your ground of trying to answer the question has to be a bit shaky. Pretend yesterday you went to a quantum slot machine. You turned the handle and then the quantum world “danced” (sorry that I’m throwing in a lot of terms or analogies people use to describe the subatomic world). As the quantum world “danced” it ended up with a certain results. (Like the direction they are moving, speed, . . .). Now let’s say you went back in time and did the same thing. Would the quantum world “dace” the same?

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[Xeroc 0]

Whether the quantum world "dances" the same way or not depends on whether we have time version 3 or 4, Master Q. If we have version 3, then if you "repeat" it will work the same way every time. If we have version 4, then it will be a chance interacton each time - could happen differently.

 

Also...

 

How the paradoxes are solved (continued from previous reply)

 

Supposing the "time scenario" is 3 or 4 (really doesn't matter), then the paradoxes are solved differently...

I'm using the "Grandfather Paradox"

 

Subset A:

1. You travel back in time and kill yourself

2. Since you killed yourself no one grows up to travel back and kill you

3. So ... You don't exist in the future to go back in time and kill yourself

4. Your younger version therfore grows up

5. You then go back and kill yourself

6. Since you killed yourself no one grows up to travel back and kill you

7. etc.

It just keeps repeating until...

(big #). You go back in time to kill yourself but a capacitor blows on your time machine and you can't go back in time and kill yourself - the timeline is stable!

All you would remember is a freak accident kept you from going back in time to kill yourself! (you don't remember any "looping") You would notice every time you tried to make a paradox a freak accident would stop you!!!

 

This phenomenon is called a "temporal loop" and the conclusion is called "chance compensation"

 

I don't really know how it would work in Subset B where all time travel is simultaneous - you would both be dead and alive at the same time??? It doesn't make sense!

[Celtic_Swimmer 0]

Again i feel SO weird here..

lol u people make me feel dumb.. and i have a 90% average

 

-Laur

[Xeroc 0]

Oops! Forgot something!

 

There is also the theory of Quantum Realities

 

In this theory, each time you time-travel you create an alternate time line. In this case, if you traveled back in time to kill yourself, you would succeed and you would still exist but your younger version would not. You would have, in effect, "jumped" realities. If you went back to your time no one would know who you were because in their reality, you don't exist!

 

Intereseting??? This is "Subset C" under my original post.

[Guest Guest]

Time travel.. well.. since time is based on how fast we move, for example the earth rotates well.. pretty fast, and time moves on pretty slow. Since time would be standing still if the earth would be moving in the same speed as the light, we should be able to travel back in time if we can move faster than lightspeed.. That would be pretty cool, heh

[Data 0]

I am think I am going to watch all three of the Back to the Future movies. :blink:

[Yillara Skye 1]

Very cute Data, Back to the Future really isn't that bad, after all!

 

Anyway, this thread reminds me of a discussion between my mother, brother and myself. My brother is quite peeved anytime a history teacher makes the statement "This is an event that changed history." My brother and I agree that one day it may be possible for time travel, and that if you were to go back to the past and change something you are not changing history at all. In fact you are always going to end up changing the future. There, at least in our opinion, is no such thing as an event or person that changed HISTORY, it will only affect the future. Since the future will soon be today and both will soon be history. Teachers should say this event paved the way for these subsequent events, or this event changed the way we live life today, ect. If this is confusing to anyone, time was never meant to be easy. If it were we would not be discussing it now.

 

On a side note, I was a physics major until last year(now majoring In Interdisciplinary Studies-Chemistry, Biology and Physics) and my brother is interested in Cybernetics, Paleontology, and Robotics.

[vcoolio 0]

Master Q,

 

If the distance between two points, A and B, is kept constant but the speed at which an object (or person) travels this same distance between these two points, gradually increases (meaning that the time taken to travel this constant distance A-B gradually decreases), what happens at the point where the object/person arrives at B at the point of leaving A? Will the object/person then be time travelling?

This has bugged me since Primary School. Please enlighten me!

 

V.C.

[master_q 0]

Master Q,

 

If the distance between two points, A and B, is kept constant but the speed at which an object (or person) travels this same distance between these two points, gradually increases (meaning that the time taken to travel this constant distance A-B gradually decreases), what happens at the point where the object/person arrives at B at the point of leaving A? Will the object/person then be time travelling?

This has bugged me since Primary School. Please enlighten me!

 

V.C.

Vcoolio,

 

Well if I have you right on what you are asking (and correct me if I am misinterpreting what you are saying/asking) . . . .

 

If I have understood what you said correctly, then you are saying that an object is traveling from Point A to Point B. The object has constant acceleration (non-constant speed, but a constant acceleration). Now here I’m not 100% sure if I interpreted you correct. Are you saying that the distance AB is always the same and is not changing or it is changing but is changing equivalent to the distance traveled by the object.

 

If it is the second, then it would be like breaking up a square (in terms of an analogy to the mathematics). By breaking off one half of the square and then taking the one left and breaking that half and then take that half and break that into another half and so on . . . . .

 

And in terms this actually fits into Zeon’s Paradox (which I won’t get into the details). Let’s say I had to run to Point D from Point C. Zeon would say that you can’t get reach it because you first would have to travel half of it and then half of that and again half of that . . . . {infinity}.

 

Zeon’s Paradox:

Achilles . . . speed at 20 f/s start at origin

Tortoise . . . speed at 10f/s starts at 20 feet away from origin

To make a table

Distance 20 | 10 | 5 | 2.5 | 1.25 | 0.625 | . . .

Time (s) 1 | .5 |.25 | .125 | .0625 | .03125

So for a summation: Total distance = 40 feet and total time is 2 sec

{20 / (1-.5)} = 40

{1 / (1-.5)} = 2

 

 

But the interesting thing about this just because we can divide something in half each time does not make everything infinity. In reality you can actually get some finite #s. Just like the breaking up of a square or if you read some of the logarithmic editions for Star Trek & Physics Weekly (a asymptote in an exponential or logarithmic for example). Like with a simple exponential or logarithmic equation we have some kind of asymptote. We will never reach it in the sense of math and inserting a #(s) because infinity is just infinity, but we can approach it with different mathematical methods.

 

I don’t know if you know this or not, but if does fit into what I’m talking about . . .

 

Did the equation above show?

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[Yillara Skye 1]

ACK! Brain needs a break! BRAIN NEEDS A BREAK! This is reminding me of all my physics courses I took back to back to back!

[vcoolio 0]

Master Q,

 

The distance A-B does not change; constant acceleration (sorry for using the word "speed"). No the equation did not show.

 

So if distance A-B does not change, acceleration is constant, time taken decreases, have we created another paradox as this example would not create an asymptote for the object would eventually meet itself and would no longer fit into Zeon's Paradox?

 

VC

[jdigs 0]

woah u guys and gals are sprouting more brain power then I can understand. :) I do not belive that Lee Harvey and Booth were from the future, that is a outrageous thought! I've been studying JFK and Lincoln for years and can't even factor in that possibilty. True at one point landing on the moon seemed far off..but this is time travel..it just dosen't work..thats what makes science fiction so darn cool! I think if anything we should try and figure out how to create transporters,moon colonies,ships that can sail the stars and androids before we even start to tackle time travel.

[master_q 0]

The equation does not show . . . well it shows for me, but that must be for the reason that I’m logged on to MSN under a specific screen name / e-mail address. (I put in on the MSN server and I guess I'm the only one that can use it . . . so I can't use it for web space :) )

 

 

I think a bit of miscommunications and misinterpretations have been for both of us.

 

 

Well if AB is the same and does not change it can still fit into Zeon’s Paradoxes. Actually most things can because of his assumption that space and time can not be divided forever

 

(

For example he thought that you could not divide by 2 forever. Trying to add a summation of an event like this would not be finite in his mind. . . however in a standard geometric series of a a{sub n} = a {sub 1} ( r )^(n-1) where |n| < 1 and if we wanted to find a summation starting from 1 going to infinity the answer would actually be finite. By looking at this standard form we can get the finite answer to be = (a {sub 1}) / (1 - r).

)

 

Truthfully Zeon was wrong in his assumptions on the paradox and other ones. Much of Zeon’s Paradoxes revolve around “infinity” and what it means. Once calculus comes into play Zeon’s questions can be easily answered.

 

If you want a Zeon’s paradox to come into play with this, then we can put in the Dichotomy Paradox. I kind of went over this before it just did not have a name. It is just saying that before I can travel a distance x I will have to travel x/2 and to travel x/2 I have to travel x/4 . . . . . . He reasoned that because this goes on forever I can’t travel to x.

 

To put that into play:

 

And that comes from looking at my example in the ( ) with s infinity = a1 / (1 - r)

Plug in the #s and then we get 1

 

If I just travel from A to B at a constant acceleration and that’s it, then there is no real issue. Zeon’s Stade Paradox says that space & time can not be divided by definite amount is just wrong. So these paradoxes that I am presenting crumble away.

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Anyone interrested in discussing time travel? :blink:

[shinzonfan 0]

Interesting topic. I cannot answer what time period I would go to just yet. I need some time to think about it.

 

They say when you see star-light you are really seeing the past because that light has taken so long to get here. The star the light is coming from could be long dead and gone and yet we can still see the light. The Sun's light itself takes I believe seven minutes to reach us.

 

I wouldn't mind maybe going back in time to see what really happened at certain points in history. For example, finding out if there really was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, or if it was the mob, or just one psychopath. Or seeing the Moon Walk. Or how Stone Henge (don't know how to spell it) was built or the pyramids. Or what really happened to the hamster that got out of his cage when I was nine. :oops:

 

If time travel is possible, do you think you can only go back to the past or is the future a possibility as well?

[Guest Ktrek]

Time travel to the future would also have to be possible if travel to the past was, because time would have to be understood as a constant; which means that all of time past, present and future exists all at once. :blink:

 

Ktrek

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Well, I blieve you could visit the past and future.

 

As for Kennedy? I know what happened. Interrested?