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Star Trek IS Canon

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We can personally marginalize it as a stand alone work but that will not fly in the face of any official discussion.

 

The sooner we start allowing the changes to gel in our minds and accept them as factual occurrences within the Star Trek Universe the better off we will be. There is no shoehorning original with new, it's all different now period.

 

Sorry to be so blunt but I still feel the burning sting of being slapped with how Holy and Sacred the Rules for What Is & Isn't Canon in previous discussions. I begged for mercy but my cries fell on merciless ears and now, having been beaten into submission for obeying the Rules I have no choice but to honor my stripes and declare:

 

It is canon and that's that.

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I am inclined to agree with AE. While Star Trek (XI) is not reconcilable with the original or prime timeline, the alternate timeline it exists in is birthed from the original timeline.

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Technically since it's in an alternate reality, anything non-canon could be considered canon...just in a different reality. :P

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This is as much Canon as Enterprise is and in fact this movie helps to further cement Enterprise as Canon. That said....

 

Click for Spoiler:

This movie really throws a lot of Trek history into question, which of course goes with an alternate timeline. First, is Tuvok ever born? His date of birth is 2264 but Vulcan is destroyed in 2258. I know that Tuvok is born on Vulcanis Lunar Colony but where is that? How close to Vulcan is it? If it's close enough to be destroyed by the black hole that destroys Vulcan then Tuvok is in trouble. This could be explained away by saying that Tuvok's parents were among the 10,000 or so survivors.

 

Another thing, everyone points out that Vulcan is destroyed but so too is Romulus and Remus. If Romulus is destroyed then how will the Federation defeat the Dominion in the Dominion war... assuming that the war even happens.

 

Without the Romulans to help balance the sector what happens with the Klingons? The Romulans never attack Khitomer thus never kill Mogh and Worf never gets adopted by humans and in turn never joins Starfleet. Also, the Romulans never attack the Klingon outpost on Narendra III which means that the Enterprise-C doesn't come to the rescue and is never destroyed possibly pushing back the construction of the Enterprise-D.

 

Now, since the Enterprise-C wasn't destroyed trying to defend Klingons there was never a peace treaty meaning that there is no alliance with the Klingons further weakening the possibility of either the Klingons or Humans defeating the Dominion.

 

Those are just a few issues that I've thought of and I know they can all be explained away as an alternate timeline and thus "our" timeline is still there, it's just existing as a parallel timeline but I'm really hoping that they set things right in the next movie.

 

If I could ask the producers/directors a question it would be this... Is this an "alternate reality" and is "our reality" (the 800 hours that came before) still there and intact or does this "alternate reality" replace "our reality"?

 

It clearly can't be both ways. When writing "Trek History" you MUST put Star Trek XI into it's own category. It's canon but it can't co-exist with all that came before. The only way you can do it is by making it sort of like the Alternate Universe or all of Worf's different quantum realities in Parallels.

 

The Kirk and Spock of ST XI can't be the Kirk and Spock from TOS or the TOS movies. Which brings to mind that James Kirk was supposed to have been born in Riverside, Iowa. Not out in space, so how would that be explained? They were out in space before the alternate timeline took place.

 

Well that was a bit more than I had planned to type but one thing just kept leading to another and I could probably go on with more lol. Despite all of that though, I did enjoy the movie and still plan to go back to the Imax version. I just hope Star Trek XII sets some things right when they make it.

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This is as much Canon as Enterprise is and in fact this movie helps to further cement Enterprise as Canon. That said....

 

Click for Spoiler:

This movie really throws a lot of Trek history into question, which of course goes with an alternate timeline. First, is Tuvok ever born? His date of birth is 2264 but Vulcan is destroyed in 2258. I know that Tuvok is born on Vulcanis Lunar Colony but where is that? How close to Vulcan is it? If it's close enough to be destroyed by the black hole that destroys Vulcan then Tuvok is in trouble. This could be explained away by saying that Tuvok's parents were among the 10,000 or so survivors.

 

Another thing, everyone points out that Vulcan is destroyed but so too is Romulus and Remus. If Romulus is destroyed then how will the Federation defeat the Dominion in the Dominion war... assuming that the war even happens.

 

Without the Romulans to help balance the sector what happens with the Klingons? The Romulans never attack Khitomer thus never kill Mogh and Worf never gets adopted by humans and in turn never joins Starfleet. Also, the Romulans never attack the Klingon outpost on Narendra III which means that the Enterprise-C doesn't come to the rescue and is never destroyed possibly pushing back the construction of the Enterprise-D.

 

Now, since the Enterprise-C wasn't destroyed trying to defend Klingons there was never a peace treaty meaning that there is no alliance with the Klingons further weakening the possibility of either the Klingons or Humans defeating the Dominion.

 

Those are just a few issues that I've thought of and I know they can all be explained away as an alternate timeline and thus "our" timeline is still there, it's just existing as a parallel timeline but I'm really hoping that they set things right in the next movie.

 

If I could ask the producers/directors a question it would be this... Is this an "alternate reality" and is "our reality" (the 800 hours that came before) still there and intact or does this "alternate reality" replace "our reality"?

 

It clearly can't be both ways. When writing "Trek History" you MUST put Star Trek XI into it's own category. It's canon but it can't co-exist with all that came before. The only way you can do it is by making it sort of like the Alternate Universe or all of Worf's different quantum realities in Parallels.

 

The Kirk and Spock of ST XI can't be the Kirk and Spock from TOS or the TOS movies. Which brings to mind that James Kirk was supposed to have been born in Riverside, Iowa. Not out in space, so how would that be explained? They were out in space before the alternate timeline took place.

 

Well that was a bit more than I had planned to type but one thing just kept leading to another and I could probably go on with more lol. Despite all of that though, I did enjoy the movie and still plan to go back to the Imax version. I just hope Star Trek XII sets some things right when they make it.

Click for Spoiler:

Romulus and Remus are still there in Star Trek XI's alternate timeline. They were destroyed in the prime timeline in 2387 but still exist in 2258 in the alternate timeline. Nero intends to destroy the Federation to make the Romulan Empire of this timeline the dominant power of the quadrant.

 

Also Kirk said he was from Iowa, not necessarily born there.

 

Additionally, the writers have stated they are following the quantum theory of time travel. This means that travelling to the past results in the creation of an alternate timeline if only because you are not where you are supposed to be in time. You cannot change your own past, only the past of this particular timeline. Some believe that this may be how time travel would work as it avoids paradoxes. I've kind of glossed over it here, but I've explained it several other times on the boards. Anyway, the original timeline continues after the time traveller leaves. At the end of Countdown, the Enterprise-E is still there and nothing has changed.

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Romulus and Remus are still there in Star Trek XI's alternate timeline. They were destroyed in the prime timeline in 2387 but still exist in 2258 in the alternate timeline. Nero intends to destroy the Federation to make the Romulan Empire of this timeline the dominant power of the quadrant.

 

Also Kirk said he was from Iowa, not necessarily born there.

 

Additionally, the writers have stated they are following the quantum theory of time travel. This means that travelling to the past results in the creation of an alternate timeline if only because you are not where you are supposed to be in time. You cannot change your own past, only the past of this particular timeline. Some believe that this may be how time travel would work as it avoids paradoxes. I've kind of glossed over it here, but I've explained it several other times on the boards. Anyway, the original timeline continues after the time traveller leaves. At the end of Countdown, the Enterprise-E is still there and nothing has changed.

 

 

Click for Spoiler:

Ok, I can accept that about Romulus still being there. Temporal mechanics will get you every time won't they? lol Anyway, looking on Kirks bio page at ST.COM it says that his birthplace is Riverside Iowa. So while some of the things can be explained by the time travel (which is being used way too much at this point), how can the presence of the Kirks on the Kelvin be explained? They were already there and Mama Kirk was in labor with little Jim when the attack that kills his father takes place. So they're on the Kelvin before the alternate timeline happens. That's how it looks to me anyway.

 

I can totally accept that it's all "alternate" and not "our reality", I wish they had gone in a different direction for the story though and stuck to "our reality". I know it could have been done if they had brought in the right writers.

 

Again, I enjoyed the movie, I rated it as a 5 so I'm not knocking the movie (totally). If I was all powerful though I'd have gone a different way I think.

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I feel the same way. I loved the movie. It wasn't Die Hard in space like I had feared. :P I really appreciated it, thoroughly.

However I do have one fairly major reservation about it in that it does seem a bit like a cop-out to just say, "Okay, now we're going to keep some elements the same but then reboot it in such a way that we can do whatever we want without worrying about consistency." While I appreciate that this opens up a vast potential for new and exciting stories, it does seem to have to be considered as pretty much independent of everything else in the canon. I find it unsettling in that regard. And, to me, it seems unlikely that they would spend another movie on essentially the same topic just to set the timeline right, so I doubt that will happen.

The fact is, the alteration of the timeline bothers me. That being said, I did genuinely love the film, and I'm going to IMAX it again too, this weekend. :D It's all so exciting!! :(


Diana

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Ok, I can accept that about Romulus still being there. Temporal mechanics will get you every time won't they? lol Anyway, looking on Kirks bio page at ST.COM it says that his birthplace is Riverside Iowa. So while some of the things can be explained by the time travel (which is being used way too much at this point), how can the presence of the Kirks on the Kelvin be explained? They were already there and Mama Kirk was in labor with little Jim when the attack that kills his father takes place. So they're on the Kelvin before the alternate timeline happens. That's how it looks to me anyway.

 

Click for Spoiler:

Kirk actually being born in Iowa is what is referred to as 'fanon'. Fans have extrapolated it from statements in canon that are not definitive. The Star Trek.com bios are not definitive canon (actually just checked Memory Alpha and they've repeated the mistake). However, in reality I do not believe Kirk's birthplace has ever been explicitly stated in canon. Therefore, this movie has the ability to have Kirk be born wherever they want. As long as he lives in Iowa at some point.

 

There is actually a great deal that we take for granted that is not actually official canon.

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Ok, I can accept that about Romulus still being there. Temporal mechanics will get you every time won't they? lol Anyway, looking on Kirks bio page at ST.COM it says that his birthplace is Riverside Iowa. So while some of the things can be explained by the time travel (which is being used way too much at this point), how can the presence of the Kirks on the Kelvin be explained? They were already there and Mama Kirk was in labor with little Jim when the attack that kills his father takes place. So they're on the Kelvin before the alternate timeline happens. That's how it looks to me anyway.

 

Click for Spoiler:

Kirk actually being born in Iowa is what is referred to as 'fanon'. Fans have extrapolated it from statements in canon that are not definitive. The Star Trek.com bios are not definitive canon (actually just checked Memory Alpha and they've repeated the mistake). However, in reality I do not believe Kirk's birthplace has ever been explicitly stated in canon. Therefore, this movie has the ability to have Kirk be born wherever they want. As long as he lives in Iowa at some point.

 

There is actually a great deal that we take for granted that is not actually official canon.

 

 

Click for Spoiler:

I've never heard the term fanon before and while it's true that it was never explicitly stated that he was born in Iowa it was accepted by Denise and Michael Okuda as well as the official Star Trek website. Not only is it in the bio on ST.COM but it's in the Star Trek Encyclopedia as well. Of course it references ST IV as it's source but it states that he was born in Iowa on planet Earth. So I acknowledge that a loophole could be seen in that the statement "No, I'm from Iowa I only work in outer space" doesn't say "I was born in Iowa" it's generally understood that when someone says "I'm from..." they're talking about the place they were born. For instance when I'm asked that question my answer is generally along these lines... "I'm from Maryland but I live in Virginia". I was born in Maryland, lived there for a portion of my life but no longer live there. Oddly enough I was at a meeting with the VA today and was asked a smilier question where I gave a similar response explaining that I'm not from the state that I live in.

 

My neighbor Norm (whom I've spoken of before on the board) gets pretty annoyed with me when I say he's "from Virginia". He will quickly point out that he's no Virginian, he's a Pennsylvanian. He's lived in Virginia for over 40 years, but he's "from Pennsylvania".

 

So with Kirk's statement of where he's from, ST.COM's bio page and the attached section from the encyclopedia I'm accepting Iowa as his birthplace. This small point alone isn't something to hold "against" the movie though. But it is, I believe an instance where a lack of consideration for what has come before was shown. Just as in the case of putting a 17 year old Chekov on the ship in a year when Chekov would have only been 13. That's one that can't be explained away by Neros actions.

 

That also just brought another thought to mind, which I suppose will be explained away with the "alternate timeline" deal but Spock was betrothed to T'Pring in 2237. I don't believe that Spock would allow Uhura to be all over him and show loving feelings for her. I see this as another instance of a lack of consideration for what has come before.

 

I know it can be argued that the it's all ok because the events of 2233 created an alternate timeline but that's the problem many Star Trek fans will have with this. An alternate timeline can have Kirk killed in the first 3 minutes of the next movie and have him replaced by Cpt. Chekov. It can be done but that doesn't make it right. lol

 

 

IMG_6024.JPG

 

 

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It has always been an assumption that Kirk was born in Iowa, based on the line in Star Trek IV and the fact that Riverside, Iowa declared itself to be Kirk's birthplace (which evidently was done in 1985 as an attempt by Riverside to generate tourism, completely independent of anything official of Star Trek) and then they did the line in Star Trek IV. But the line is far from definitive. The Encyclopedia, while a useful resource, is not 100% accurate. Notice that it cites the non-definitive line from Star Trek IV. It left the room for Star Trek XI to do what it did.

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It has always been an assumption that Kirk was born in Iowa, based on the line in Star Trek IV and the fact that Riverside, Iowa declared itself to be Kirk's birthplace (which evidently was done in 1985 as an attempt by Riverside to generate tourism, completely independent of anything official of Star Trek) and then they did the line in Star Trek IV. But the line is far from definitive. The Encyclopedia, while a useful resource, is not 100% accurate. Notice that it cites the non-definitive line from Star Trek IV. It left the room for Star Trek XI to do what it did.

Click for Spoiler:

For me, and this is just my personal choice based on the way I define being "from" someplace as I described above along with the official ST website and the Encyclopedia take it as the accepted birthplace by the franchise. I also believe after hearing the news today that Abrams knew that he was straying from canon and that it would end up pissing a lot of people off. He's telling "hard core purists" to stay home because they'll "just get angry".

 

Now is that any way to treat the very fans that made the movie possible to begin with?

 

The video clip from the news is uploading to YouTube now. I'll add it to the thread once it's finished.

 

 

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It has always been an assumption that Kirk was born in Iowa, based on the line in Star Trek IV and the fact that Riverside, Iowa declared itself to be Kirk's birthplace (which evidently was done in 1985 as an attempt by Riverside to generate tourism, completely independent of anything official of Star Trek) and then they did the line in Star Trek IV. But the line is far from definitive. The Encyclopedia, while a useful resource, is not 100% accurate. Notice that it cites the non-definitive line from Star Trek IV. It left the room for Star Trek XI to do what it did.

Click for Spoiler:

For me, and this is just my personal choice based on the way I define being "from" someplace as I described above along with the official ST website and the Encyclopedia take it as the accepted birthplace by the franchise. I also believe after hearing the news today that Abrams knew that he was straying from canon and that it would end up pissing a lot of people off. He's telling "hard core purists" to stay home because they'll "just get angry".

 

Now is that any way to treat the very fans that made the movie possible to begin with?

 

The video clip from the news is uploading to YouTube now. I'll add it to the thread once it's finished.

 

 

 

You can say

Click for Spoiler:

pissing
in here?

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You can say

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pissing
in here?

 

There are words that can be said that aren't regarded as profanity when used in specific context. For instance, if I go out of my way to make you mad then I'm trying to piss you off. But if you use that same word in the context to describe the act of urination it becomes more vulgar.

 

When selecting the language you want to use think about what the proper language to use when talking to your mother or grandmother would be. Of course that litmus test doesn't always work as for some people they may use very vulgar language regardless. So maybe just think about what language is proper to use in "polite company". To say that someone is "pissed off" wouldn't be outlandish in "polite company" but to describe urination with the same word would be.

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For me, and this is just my personal choice based on the way I define being "from" someplace as I described above along with the official ST website and the Encyclopedia take it as the accepted birthplace by the franchise. I also believe after hearing the news today that Abrams knew that he was straying from canon and that it would end up pissing a lot of people off. He's telling "hard core purists" to stay home because they'll "just get angry".

 

Now is that any way to treat the very fans that made the movie possible to begin with?

 

The video clip from the news is uploading to YouTube now. I'll add it to the thread once it's finished.

 

 

 

Click for Spoiler:

What you describe there would be considered fanon. It has no real basis as fact in the Star Trek universe, but as long as it is not directly contradicted people just accept it. Now it has been directly contradicted. It is highly unlikely that Kirk could have been born in Iowa in the original timeline based on the position of the Kelvin at the time of the Narada's attack. In fact, Memory Alpha has now been amended to say that Kirk was born on the Kelvin and spent much of his childhood in Iowa, considering himself to be from there.

 

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/James_T._Kirk

 

As for the other matter, Abrams does not say anything about violating canon in that clip and he also does tell anyone to stay home, he says they may want to stay home because they'll probably just get angry. He is not speaking to all Trekkies, just a certain minority who have rejected the movie sight-unseen for a variety of reasons (such as not using the original bridge set). In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that was some sort of reverse psychology play by Abrams.

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As for the other matter, Abrams does not say anything about violating canon in that clip and he also does tell anyone to stay home, he says they may want to stay home because they'll probably just get angry. He is not speaking to all Trekkies, just a certain minority who have rejected the movie sight-unseen for a variety of reasons (such as not using the original bridge set). In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that was some sort of reverse psychology play by Abrams.

 

Click for Spoiler:

that is the way I took it as well, there are already people who are mad that the phasers are different. People just get mad over the smallest thing to find something to complain about

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This is as much Canon as Enterprise is and in fact this movie helps to further cement Enterprise as Canon. That said....

 

Click for Spoiler:

This movie really throws a lot of Trek history into question, which of course goes with an alternate timeline. First, is Tuvok ever born? His date of birth is 2264 but Vulcan is destroyed in 2258. I know that Tuvok is born on Vulcanis Lunar Colony but where is that? How close to Vulcan is it? If it's close enough to be destroyed by the black hole that destroys Vulcan then Tuvok is in trouble. This could be explained away by saying that Tuvok's parents were among the 10,000 or so survivors.

 

Another thing, everyone points out that Vulcan is destroyed but so too is Romulus and Remus. If Romulus is destroyed then how will the Federation defeat the Dominion in the Dominion war... assuming that the war even happens. ...

 

Those are just a few issues that I've thought of and I know they can all be explained away as an alternate timeline and thus "our" timeline is still there, it's just existing as a parallel timeline but I'm really hoping that they set things right in the next movie.

 

If I could ask the producers/directors a question it would be this... Is this an "alternate reality" and is "our reality" (the 800 hours that came before) still there and intact or does this "alternate reality" replace "our reality"?

 

It clearly can't be both ways. When writing "Trek History" you MUST put Star Trek XI into it's own category. It's canon but it can't co-exist with all that came before. The only way you can do it is by making it sort of like the Alternate Universe or all of Worf's different quantum realities in Parallels.

 

I haven't seen the movie yet (going on Monday unless something unforeseen comes up AGAIN) but based on what VBG says

 

Click for Spoiler:

I believe the only way to reconcile some of the events in this movie with canon is to categorize it as an alternate universe. There were episodes at least partially set on Vulcan after 2258 on both TOS (example: Amok Time) and TNG (examples: Unification, Gambit) and we see Romulus (examples: Unification and NEM) and Remus (example: NEM) after that time as well so the three planets exist in the late 23rd century and 24th century of the series/movies. I think any additions to canon made by this movie should be clearly marked as being alternate universe in the same way that characters and events from the Mirror Universe are so we now have, for example, Kirk, AU Kirk and MU Kirk.

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This is as much Canon as Enterprise is and in fact this movie helps to further cement Enterprise as Canon. That said....

 

Click for Spoiler:

This movie really throws a lot of Trek history into question, which of course goes with an alternate timeline. First, is Tuvok ever born? His date of birth is 2264 but Vulcan is destroyed in 2258. I know that Tuvok is born on Vulcanis Lunar Colony but where is that? How close to Vulcan is it? If it's close enough to be destroyed by the black hole that destroys Vulcan then Tuvok is in trouble. This could be explained away by saying that Tuvok's parents were among the 10,000 or so survivors.

 

Another thing, everyone points out that Vulcan is destroyed but so too is Romulus and Remus. If Romulus is destroyed then how will the Federation defeat the Dominion in the Dominion war... assuming that the war even happens. ...

 

Those are just a few issues that I've thought of and I know they can all be explained away as an alternate timeline and thus "our" timeline is still there, it's just existing as a parallel timeline but I'm really hoping that they set things right in the next movie.

 

If I could ask the producers/directors a question it would be this... Is this an "alternate reality" and is "our reality" (the 800 hours that came before) still there and intact or does this "alternate reality" replace "our reality"?

 

It clearly can't be both ways. When writing "Trek History" you MUST put Star Trek XI into it's own category. It's canon but it can't co-exist with all that came before. The only way you can do it is by making it sort of like the Alternate Universe or all of Worf's different quantum realities in Parallels.

 

I haven't seen the movie yet (going on Monday unless something unforeseen comes up AGAIN) but based on what VBG says

 

Click for Spoiler:

I believe the only way to reconcile some of the events in this movie with canon is to categorize it as an alternate universe. There were episodes at least partially set on Vulcan after 2258 on both TOS (example: Amok Time) and TNG (examples: Unification, Gambit) and we see Romulus (examples: Unification and NEM) and Remus (example: NEM) after that time as well so the three planets exist in the late 23rd century and 24th century of the series/movies. I think any additions to canon made by this movie should be clearly marked as being alternate universe in the same way that characters and events from the Mirror Universe are so we now have, for example, Kirk, AU Kirk and MU Kirk.

 

Click for Spoiler:

That is exactly how they are reconciled. Memory Alpha now has James T. Kirk and James T. Kirk (alternate timeline). It's the same for the rest of the characters, ships, and everything else, except those who originate from the prime timeline.

 

Also, as I said earlier, Romulus and Remus no longer exist in the future prime timeline (2387), they remain in the altered timeline.

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Also, as I said earlier, Romulus and Remus no longer exist in the future prime timeline (2387), they remain in the altered timeline.

Do you have that reversed?

 

Click for Spoiler:

Isn't the movie the alternate timeline? So if the planets were destroyed in the movie, they remain in the prime timeline and are gone in the altered timeline.

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Also, as I said earlier, Romulus and Remus no longer exist in the future prime timeline (2387), they remain in the altered timeline.

Do you have that reversed?

 

Click for Spoiler:

Isn't the movie the alternate timeline? So if the planets were destroyed in the movie, they remain in the prime timeline and are gone in the altered timeline.

 

Click for Spoiler:

What it is, which I hadn't fully thought of when I initially posted is that Romulus and Remus are destroyed in the future. Nero and Spock get thrown into the past (was it 129 years?). So when Nero and Spock get to the past they're there at a time before Romulus and Remus are destroyed. Romulus will still be destroyed, but not till the sun goes super nova in another 129 years (if I got that number right).

 

So Vulcan is gone, 10,000+ Vulcans are all that's left but Romulus and Remus are still there... for now.

 

The question in my mind now is this, is the whole "Romulan sun goes Super Nova" thing all part of an alternate universe and not part of Real Star Trek?

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that is the way I took it as well, there are already people who are mad that the phasers are different. People just get mad over the smallest thing to find something to complain about

There is an explanation for why people act like that (although I see no reason why you had to put that in a spoiler since you weren't talking about the plot per se).

 

If I spend 10 bucks for a movie and am completly satisfied with it, I will tell my friends to go see it. However, if I spend 10 bucks for a movie and am completely dissatisfied with it I will get more than 1o bucks of enjoyment out of telling people how bad it was.

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Also, as I said earlier, Romulus and Remus no longer exist in the future prime timeline (2387), they remain in the altered timeline.

Do you have that reversed?

 

Click for Spoiler:

Isn't the movie the alternate timeline? So if the planets were destroyed in the movie, they remain in the prime timeline and are gone in the altered timeline.

 

 

Click for Spoiler:

Also, as I said earlier, Romulus and Remus no longer exist in the future prime timeline (2387), they remain in the altered timeline.

Do you have that reversed?

 

Click for Spoiler:

Isn't the movie the alternate timeline? So if the planets were destroyed in the movie, they remain in the prime timeline and are gone in the altered timeline.

 

Click for Spoiler:

What it is, which I hadn't fully thought of when I initially posted is that Romulus and Remus are destroyed in the future. Nero and Spock get thrown into the past (was it 129 years?). So when Nero and Spock get to the past they're there at a time before Romulus and Remus are destroyed. Romulus will still be destroyed, but not till the sun goes super nova in another 129 years (if I got that number right).

 

So Vulcan is gone, 10,000+ Vulcans are all that's left but Romulus and Remus are still there... for now.

 

The question in my mind now is this, is the whole "Romulan sun goes Super Nova" thing all part of an alternate universe and not part of Real Star Trek?

 

Click for Spoiler:

Firstly, as a point of order, it is not the Romulan sun that goes nova. It is another star within the empire's boundaries which for some reason expands outward as it goes nova and absorbs energy from what it destroys, feeding its expansion. It will eventually threaten other major planets if it isn't stopped. Romulus was just too close to be saved in time.

 

Secondly, Romulus is destroyed in 2387 of the prime timeline. Spock's act of using red matter to stop the star's expansion occurs after Romulus' destruction. It is at this point that Spock and Nero are thrown back in time (Nero to 2233 as he entered the singularity first, Spock to 2258). At this point, an alternate timeline has been created because the very act of traveling to the past creates one according to the quantum theory of time travel which the movies' writers used (as a way to keep the old but still go in a new direction). This avoids the possibility of paradoxes.

 

Anyway, it is in this alternate timeline that Vulcan is destroyed in 2258. Romulus still exists in 2258, so it is still there. However, should action not be taken Romulus will be destroyed in 2387 of the alternate timeline as well.

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Secondly, Romulus is destroyed in 2387 of the prime timeline.

 

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This is the question I have, who says that it's the "prime timeline"? Is it an alternate timeline itself which skews even further with the time travel?

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Secondly, Romulus is destroyed in 2387 of the prime timeline.

 

Click for Spoiler:

This is the question I have, who says that it's the "prime timeline"? Is it an alternate timeline itself which skews even further with the time travel?

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All indications are that the timeline that Spock and Nero leave is the prime timeline. There is nothing to suggest it isn't. The Countdown tie-in comic features appearances by several TNG characters and I do believe they acknowledge past events of the Star Trek universe, namely Star Trek Nemesis.

 

I do acknowledge that someone could theorize that Spock and Nero left from another alternate timeline. But they would have no evidence to support this theory. Also, it makes little difference to the film itself. The only thing such a theory would allow for is Romulus not being destroyed in 2387.

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Secondly, Romulus is destroyed in 2387 of the prime timeline.

 

Click for Spoiler:

This is the question I have, who says that it's the "prime timeline"? Is it an alternate timeline itself which skews even further with the time travel?

Click for Spoiler:

All indications are that the timeline that Spock and Nero leave is the prime timeline. There is nothing to suggest it isn't. The Countdown tie-in comic features appearances by several TNG characters and I do believe they acknowledge past events of the Star Trek universe, namely Star Trek Nemesis.

 

I do acknowledge that someone could theorize that Spock and Nero left from another alternate timeline. But they would have no evidence to support this theory. Also, it makes little difference to the film itself. The only thing such a theory would allow for is Romulus not being destroyed in 2387.

 

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Actually the evidence is in the movie itself, we've even spoken of it. In the movie Chekov is 17 years old in 2258 but in the Prime Timeline Chekov is born in 2245 making him 13 in 2258, not 17.

 

Now when you say "Prime timeline" I'm taking that to mean the history of Star Trek as it stood until this movie was made. If we take that history and set it in stone, as real history would be then I don't know how else it could be explained that Chekov is 17 and an officer in Starfleet in a year in which he should be 13 in the "real" Star Trek timeline.

 

Let me also point out, once again that though I'm arguing the points that "huge fans" of the movie might see as negative arguments I did like the movie. There are aspects that I don't like and I'd be happier if they had left "alternate timelines" and time travel out of the movie but I did like it and rated it as a 5. I'm just not "jumping up and down, gonna run out and see it over and over" excited about it.

 

To me, and this is just to me I will probably put this movie into the same category that I put TAS in.

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It seems to me we could have saved a lot of fuss if Ambassador Spock could have just mind-melded with Nero and said "If you stop your attack on Vulcan I can still save Romulus in this timeline." It would have to be by someone other than Ambassador Spock since he would surely be dead by that point but perhaps the Young Spock could do it.

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Actually the evidence is in the movie itself, we've even spoken of it. In the movie Chekov is 17 years old in 2258 but in the Prime Timeline Chekov is born in 2245 making him 13 in 2258, not 17.

Now when you say "Prime timeline" I'm taking that to mean the history of Star Trek as it stood until this movie was made. If we take that history and set it in stone, as real history would be then I don't know how else it could be explained that Chekov is 17 and an officer in Starfleet in a year in which he should be 13 in the "real" Star Trek timeline.




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I suppose theoretically, one could make the argument that Spock and Nero are from a timeline where Chekov was born in 2241 instead of 2245. However, since Chekov's birth occurs after the 2233 incursion by Nero, anything after that incursion could be changed. The attack on the Kelvin could have any number of impacts, including altering the year of Chekov's birth.


I edited this post after thinking about it a little more, which explains the discrepancy with what VBG quoted.

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What?

 

The prime timeline is everything TOS through Nemesis (roughly speaking). The alternate timeline branches out from the prime in 2233 with Nero's arrival. Nero left the prime timeline in 2387 and his incursion into the past causes the new timeline to branch off at 2233. He makes the branching more pronounced with his attack on the Kelvin and subsequent attack on Vulcan. The change in Chekov's birth year is most likely a consequence of this branching. For some reason related to the destruction of the Kelvin, Chekov's parents had him four years earlier than they would of in the prime timeline.

 

I honestly do not see how that can be used as proof that Nero does not originate from the prime timeline.

 

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I don't accept the notion that somehow the same person can be born 4 years earlier simply because of Nero's arrival. If the same person can be born 4 years earlier than why wasn't I born in 1964 as my brother rather than 5 years later as me?

 

What happens if 4 years earlier Chekov's mother is only 14 or 15 herself? We don't know that (as far as I know) but just suppose she was 19 or 20 in 2045. Where's the explanation there? That's the problem with all the "alternate timeline" stuff and messing with what's already been done.

 

I know we're dealing with scifi and "anything" can happen but I simply don't believe that because Nero was thrown back into the past that Andrei Chekov and Larisa Chekov were somehow able to have the same exact baby that would grow up to follow the same exact life path into Starfleet and be the same person but only have it all happen 4 years earlier than originally. I could see how the events could cause someone to NOT be born but to somehow make someone come into existence 4 years early? It would be a whole different person.

 

I suppose if we just want to "look the other way then we can just call it what it is, Abrams wanted to use all of the TOS characters but either didn't take into account the dates and history that came before (either through ignorance or laziness in research). Or maybe at worst he just simply didn't care that the dates didn't fit, he was doing it his way and that was that.

 

Ever since the dawn of Star Trek in the 1960's Star Trek fans have been sticklers for accuracy. I don't believe that to be a bad thing. This movie has thrown a lot of things out the window and it almost amazes me that so many people are happy to just say "Well it's just a new timeline".

 

Star Trek fans almost revolted when the Ferengi and Borg were on Enterprise yet it's ok to change Kirk's birthplace and Chekov's date of birth.... and who knows what else.

 

I am curious to wait a couple weeks then I'll scan various Trek sites and see what everyone's saying in regard to the alterations. Maybe I'm the only one that those little things annoy.

 

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Also, as I said earlier, Romulus and Remus no longer exist in the future prime timeline (2387), they remain in the altered timeline.

Do you have that reversed?

 

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Isn't the movie the alternate timeline? So if the planets were destroyed in the movie, they remain in the prime timeline and are gone in the altered timeline.

 

 

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Also, as I said earlier, Romulus and Remus no longer exist in the future prime timeline (2387), they remain in the altered timeline.

Do you have that reversed?

 

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Isn't the movie the alternate timeline? So if the planets were destroyed in the movie, they remain in the prime timeline and are gone in the altered timeline.

 

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What it is, which I hadn't fully thought of when I initially posted is that Romulus and Remus are destroyed in the future. Nero and Spock get thrown into the past (was it 129 years?). So when Nero and Spock get to the past they're there at a time before Romulus and Remus are destroyed. Romulus will still be destroyed, but not till the sun goes super nova in another 129 years (if I got that number right).

 

So Vulcan is gone, 10,000+ Vulcans are all that's left but Romulus and Remus are still there... for now.

 

The question in my mind now is this, is the whole "Romulan sun goes Super Nova" thing all part of an alternate universe and not part of Real Star Trek?

 

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Firstly, as a point of order, it is not the Romulan sun that goes nova. It is another star within the empire's boundaries which for some reason expands outward as it goes nova and absorbs energy from what it destroys, feeding its expansion. It will eventually threaten other major planets if it isn't stopped. Romulus was just too close to be saved in time.

 

 

 

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Just to be a pedant a typical nova usual goes something like this; As the sun/star runs out of its usual sources for fusion it expands as it draws upon the heavier elements (A la whatever star that killed romulus) then as those resources are used up it collapses upon itself (now here is the fun part) If it continues to fall upon itself and is of a sufficient enough size, it can become super dense and has the theoretical possibility of either becoming a black hole itself (extremely like or becoming a brown dwarf (a stellar object with a mass between that of a gas giant and a star, some debate is whether they have achieved fusion but for sake of argument here, it has) between collapsing on itself and brown dwarf it blows of a huge amount of debris (gas etc)

 

So essentially Jack when you say some reason it expanded and absorbed energy (beg to differ it is collating elements for fusion ergo transforming into energy, but neither her nor there) it is actually fulfilling its actual death throes of being supernova. [here endeth the science nerdism]

 

Big bug bear with the film is the death of the romulan ship.

 

Under relativity

 

to an outside observer action near to a large gravity object become slower as the gravity of the large gravity object acts on time, however to those actually near to the large gravity object time behaves in an apparently normal manner (basic rule is everything is relative to the observer) time speeds up the more gravity there is, but to those experiencing the speeded up time, they won't notice it. (which would indicate Bajor with 26 hours may possibly be in an area with less gravity than earth)

 

Given this, the enterprise would have seen the Romulan ship in a state of suspension and not destroyed immediately (Time being slower for the observer than the observed in this equation) it could have taken centuries if not millennia for the destruction of the Romulan ship. Where as for the Romulans themselves it would have been a momentary thing.

 

Feel free to illuminate me.

 

Edited by Angela

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