Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted September 10, 2003 OK, they flashed us a scene of Hoshi crossing her arms over her naked chest in "Shockwave, Part II" without any warning. I found this highly offensive, as I had no warning that this scene would be shown, I don't care how brief it was. Well, I paushed the Season 3 promo at StarTrek.com and there's a flash of a scene in the decon chamber with Trip rubbing decon gel on a naked T'Pol, she's covering her breasts with her hands. If they go the route of having lots of sexuallity and making nudity a casual thing, then, sadly, I'm going to have to tune out of ENT for good and hope for a better 6th series. Anyway, I'm hoping this is just a "ratings thing" that you can close your eyes for and that be that. I'd rather avoid the old "oh, you're a prune for being afraid of nudity" as that's not the case at all. It's just that some of us believe that the human body is sacred, for lack of a better word, and that it should be something that is only shared with that whom we marry. Anywho, do you all think this is nothing more than a ratings gimmick? I sure hope so. Ya know, they never did anything like this on previous Treks and it ticks me off that they're doing it on ENT. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
poguemahone 0 Posted September 10, 2003 Isn't Enterprise rated TV-PG (for those of us in the States) which means: "PARENTAL GUIDANCE SUGGESTED. THE PROGRAM MAY CONTAIN INFREQUENT COARSE LANGUAGE, LIMITED VIOLENCE, SOME SUGGESTIVE SEXUAL DIALOGUE AND SITUATIONS." So I think you have some warning as to the shows contents. As far as, is it a ratings gimmick? No I don't think so. Star Trek from its very begining has had "Sexualy Suggestive" content. Do I think the human body is sacred, sure, but I think there is a big difference between being partialy nude and full-nude. But I do think its unfair to say you have no advance warning, given that rating thing in the top corner before each show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted September 10, 2003 It's a well known fact that "sex sells". If you tune out becuase of an occasional 1 second glance at the back, underside of a woman's breast that is not in any sexual context then you'll just be missing out on good shows. That is your choice and if you were to decide to tune out because of that I'd respect your decision. The question I would have though is did you also tune out TNG, DS9 and Voyager (as well as TOS)? They all had suggestive things in them. The amount of breast you see in Enterprise is less then you would see watching an awards show or a Miss Amreica contest. The front view with hands covering is a show where nothing at all can be seen and if it's viewed as "dirty" or "sexual" then that's because the person seeing it that way has that on his or her mind. You just have to know when to view something as sexual and when to view it as non-sexual. CJLP click the spoiler for a "non-spoiler spoiler" about that shot you saw on the commercial: Click for Spoiler: They show a "Hoshi" shot in this one too so you are forewarned this time. It's in T'Pol's quarters near the end of the episode. So if that kind of scene makes you uncomfortable switch the channel for a moment or two. Come here and someone can tell you what you missed as far as dialog goes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
APW 0 Posted September 10, 2003 I have no problem with Hoshi's covered breasts....they should have a PG warning,though. growing up my dad and brothers had girly magazines hid all over the place,and as most young boys will,I made it a point to ferret them all out and gaze in wonder and admiration at the goodies within...heehee... I'm not really all that oppossed to nudity,but agree that when its on a show that kids will watch as well as adults,they should give you a heads-up or something... Now,having nudity just for the sake of nudity and generating a ratings boost,I'd be against that...but if its done in good taste and is relevant to the scene,then i say go for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted September 10, 2003 It has nothing to do with nudity being "dirty" or "sexual", I just don't want to see it, perriod. That's why I don't look at swimsuit magazines, I don't watch Miss America pagents, and so on, all for the same reasons. I don't want to see that much skin on anyone. With this said, if they just do a shot of their shoulders, back, lower legs, or something like that, then it doesn't bother me becuase they aren't "showing" it. Suggestive doesn't bother me for the same reason, they aren't "showing" it. My problem with ENT is, for whatever stupid reason, they feel they need to be graphic when it comes to sexuallity and nudity. I'm sorry, but I don't care if her hands are covering her breasts. You still see the majority of them, just becuase you don't see her nippels doesn't mean she's not naked. She's not wearring a shirt and the majority of her breasts are shown, to me, that's flat out nudity. If it's a flash, then I can avoid the scene, provided I'm warned of it in advance. It's only if they make this a regular practive and "casualise" it, that I'd turn my back on the show. As far as "sex sells", that may be so, but just becuase "sex sells", that doesn't mean it's morally acceptable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
APW 0 Posted September 10, 2003 It has nothing to do with nudity being "dirty" or "sexual", I just don't want to see it, perriod. That's why I don't look at swimsuit magazines, I don't watch Miss America pagents, and so on, all for the same reasons. I don't want to see that much skin on anyone. With this said, if they just do a shot of their shoulders, back, lower legs, or something like that, then it doesn't bother me becuase they aren't "showing" it. Suggestive doesn't bother me for the same reason, they aren't "showing" it. My problem with ENT is, for whatever stupid reason, they feel they need to be graphic when it comes to sexuallity and nudity. I'm sorry, but I don't care if her hands are covering her breasts. You still see the majority of them, just becuase you don't see her nippels doesn't mean she's not naked. She's not wearring a shirt and the majority of her breasts are shown, to me, that's flat out nudity. If it's a flash, then I can avoid the scene, provided I'm warned of it in advance. It's only if they make this a regular practive and "casualise" it, that I'd turn my back on the show. As far as "sex sells", that may be so, but just becuase "sex sells", that doesn't mean it's morally acceptable. Okay.But what gives anyone the right to chose my morals or ethics?Maybe I have a different view on things,and such a scene doesn't upset my morals?If you don't like,don't watch. The human body is a divine creation and nothing to be ashamed of. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goose 0 Posted September 10, 2003 Stardate:213690.9 I dont think its a casual thing or is going to be.I dont think we are going to see T'Pol or Hoshi running around the bridge without clothes on(although I wouldnt mind )In todays Modern tv world your gonna have to put up with it.Thats just the way it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted September 10, 2003 My problem with ENT is, for whatever stupid reason, they feel they need to be graphic when it comes to sexuallity and nudity. I'm sorry, but I don't care if her hands are covering her breasts. You still see the majority of them, just becuase you don't see her nippels doesn't mean she's not naked. She's not wearring a shirt and the majority of her breasts are shown, to me, that's flat out nudity. There was no graphic nudity in Enterprise, Hoshi was 99% covered. I have the episdoe and can make a screen shot if needed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted September 10, 2003 pardon me for intruding on a male dominated topic but I would call these types of scenes "sexually suggestive" - they don't show "the full monty" but they are intended to get you thinking along those lines. The scenes are not there for plot or character development - they are there to titilate. I think producers are trying to cover up lack of creativity or talent when they do this - cheap and tacky is how I see it. High quality shows like Law and Order don't need to parade scantily clad females for ratings. Instead they rely on well crafted plots and scripts The producers at ENT probably don't even understand what quality drama is. I understand men like to look at the nude female body. I also know what effect this has on men. So of course you don't mind the scenes because you enjoy the reaction you get. getting off topic Click for Spoiler: I believe the girly mags, the semi-dressed awards shows etc all reinforce the view of women as sex-objects. I've even heard of a support group for men who feel that years of playboy etc has hindered their ability to have a real relationship - they can't get beyond viewing women as sexual toys....but I'm getting off topic. Yes, I too view the human body as sacred. I am also familiar with the scripture about "casting your pearls before swine." When you use your body to titilate the sexual response of the viewing public that is profaning the sacred. CJLP, the bottom line is you have to choose between your morals and watching ENT. The real irony is that none of this has helped ENT in the ratings and rather than try to understand why - they appear to be pursuing the same course with greater fervor. At least you still have Stargate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike 5 Posted September 10, 2003 I just don't understand what you have against such scenes CJLP..It's not like they're showing nudity..Seems like you believe that every part of the body should be covered at all times..How boring..I don't see things changing..If you don't like it..Don't watch it..Most everybody else don't seem to have a problem with it.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stardreamer 1 Posted September 10, 2003 Are there any shows or movies which fit you strict rules of morality, CJLP? Because more or less of female bodies are to be seen everywhere. Like Spacetigger and the rest, me as a female, I do not have any problems with it. What about half naked men in ENT. In various scenes Archer, Trip and the rest could be seen without shirt. And there are scenes in undies where "women" can see "interesting silhouettes" And I have to admit I enjoy it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekzone 0 Posted September 10, 2003 i think its just ratings....you can view the trailer on www.trekzone.org - click the link in my sig. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted September 10, 2003 Are there any shows or movies which fit you strict rules of morality, CJLP? Yeah, all the previous Treks, Stargate SG-1, and all of my movies. Like I said, if it's suggestive, or only shown from the back or whatever, I don't have a problem. As long as a man and woman's genitals are well covered along with a female's breasts, then I don't have a problem. One change to T'Pol is that she looks more feminine, this I like. A woman can be feminine and still tough as nails, Major Carter proves this on SG-1 every week. :lol: Anywho, I also like her red and blue outfits. They're snug enough to show off her figure, but loose enough for her to seemingly move arround with ease and not be a full blown catsuit like Seven of Nine and the "brown suit". I'm not saying I'd like to see her stay in the red or blue suit, just that it's a grand improvement on the brown suit. Besides, they actually look like clothes! Anywho, if it's just a ratings gimmick, then I'm A OK. It seems, so far anyway, that ENT only resorts to partial nudity for ratings as they only did it before in "Shockwave, Part II" VBG, since you see the episodes a day before they air, would you mind PMing me the "scene" where I'd get a flash of something I don't want to see, so I can just look away? Much appreciated and thanks for the head's up on tonight's episode. :lol: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red Shirt Volunteer 0 Posted September 10, 2003 Hmm all of the previous Treks? Where do you want to start? How about DS9's famous kiss? How about the episode of TNG were Data and Yar were, uhh, testing Data's funcionality - nothing shown but a lot more suggested there than an image? Anyone care to help? By the way, I haven't actually seen any nudity on Ent, and I've seen every episode. Maybe somebody could help me by posting a jpeg or something? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A l t e r E g o 9 Posted September 10, 2003 Of course it's has to do with ratings… (tell you what though, don't ever watch TNG episode Man of the People, Troi shows more breast in that one than a dozen other suggestive Trek scenes combined) …when I saw the Hoshi topless scene my thoughts were on how it emphasized the smaller, cramped interior of Ent, the scene made me chuckle for THAT reason, it was a Trek moment not a sex moment so perhaps frame of mind is important. The decon scenes are a different story, if gel is needed for the safety of the crew fine but the camera doesn't need to be in micro focus for the event. Otherwise I like how it represents a time for crew persons to have a private moment and perhaps talk about things personal in nature. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted September 10, 2003 Hmm all of the previous Treks? Where do you want to start? How about DS9's famous kiss? How about the episode of TNG were Data and Yar were, uhh, testing Data's funcionality - nothing shown but a lot more suggested there than an image? Anyone care to help? By the way, I haven't actually seen any nudity on Ent, and I've seen every episode. Maybe somebody could help me by posting a jpeg or something? There was DS9's "Who Morns for Morn" when the female claiming to be Morn's wife is in the Mud bath, she is naked and they show her sticking her leg out of the mud to in an attempt to seduce Quark. There was a scene in DS9's episode "Change of Heart" where Jadzia is naked but under the covers and looking seductively ar Worf to entice him into the bed. There was the time in DS9 when they went to Risa and the women were all in their bathing suits (no nudity but A lot of skin). TNG Episode "Captains holiday" what very sexually suggestive. TNG Episode Angel One Showed A Lot of female and Male skin. There are many other instances, as I think of them I can continue to post the titles if need be. Here's some on-topic articles I found in About.Com's SciFi section: http://scifi.about.com/library/weekly/aa012400.htm http://scifi.about.com/library/weekly/aa012400b.htm http://scifi.about.com/library/weekly/aa012400c.htm Here's a link discussing Nemesis, it looks like it's to explain to parents what type of content is in a movie before they allow their children to go to it: http://www.screenit.com/movies/2002/star_t...ek_nemesis.html Here's another site speaking about the topic and here's is a paragraph from it: http://www.capalert.com/capreports/startre...rek-nemesis.htm Then came the Star Trek: Next Generation TV series. Feeling as though I must watch them to honor my unwritten and by then almost desperate commitment to support Star Trek, I did. And the "second in command with an attitude" continued. When womanizing, filled-with-attitude, perpetually teenaged walking libido Riker (Jonathan Frakes) showed up along with the new age aspects such as full side nudity, heavy sexualization (both hetero- and homosexual) and three/four letter word vocabulary is when the name that used to stir excitement started its forever downhill slope for me. THere's a lot of sex and suggestive/creative nudity in all of the Star Trek Series. For some reason though only Enterprise is getting the notice for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted September 10, 2003 THere's a lot of sex and suggestive/creative nudity in all of the Star Trek Series. For some reason though only Enterprise is getting the notice for it. Yeah, because ENT is far more graphic than the other shows. As for the provided examples, I've seen them all and none of them have been as bad as the "sexy T'Pol" scenes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted September 10, 2003 THere's a lot of sex and suggestive/creative nudity in all of the Star Trek Series. For some reason though only Enterprise is getting the notice for it. Yeah, because ENT is far more graphic than the other shows. As for the provided examples, I've seen them all and none of them have been as bad as the "sexy T'Pol" scenes. That's true, but this is almost 10 years later in some cases and longer in others and broadcast standards change. You see more nudity at a beach or public (or private) pool. It's a matter of a decision on your part. View it with the mature attitude that it's not exposed nudity (meaning you can't see anything that should normally be covered by clothing) or view it that it's morally wrong in your opinion and tune the show out. It's my opinion that this will pop up from time to time and if you "stick to your guns" you will wind up having to tune out. You will also see this in other shows as well. Someone else pointed out that Archer and Trip' have been on many times with no shirt on, why was this fully exposed nudity not complained about? Even their nipples are exposed in an episode or two, no attempt to cover them at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted September 10, 2003 A man without his shirt is not nudity. He would have to have his genitals exposed for it to be nudity. Nudity is a lack of clothing where sexual organs are exposed, this includes one's genitals and female's breasts. Like I asked, VBG, as long as you let me know when a "nude" or "sexual" scene is coming up in an episode you view before anyone else, just send me a PM so I can look away. THANKS Also, on a side note: The only reason why I'm complaining is becuase the Trek characters were my role models as a child and I watched the show for it's intelligent stories that I couldn't find anywhere else as well as it's moral and ethical stories. However, having all this "graphic" sexuallity and partial nudity in ENT is really taking down that image for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted September 10, 2003 A man without his shirt is not nudity. He would have to have his genitals exposed for it to be nudity. Nudity is a lack of clothing where sexual organs are exposed, this includes one's genitals and female's breasts. Like I asked, VBG, as long as you let me know when a "nude" or "sexual" scene is coming up in an episode you view before anyone else, just send me a PM so I can look away. THANKS Also, on a side note: The only reason why I'm complaining is becuase the Trek characters were my role models as a child and I watched the show for it's intelligent stories that I couldn't find anywhere else as well as it's moral and ethical stories. However, having all this "graphic" sexuallity and partial nudity in ENT is really taking down that image for me. The Breast isn't a sexual organ. A sexual organ is something used for reproducing. You might think of the breast in sexual terms but that's completely cultural. Go to Europe and things aren't viewed that way. Besides a man has breasts just not developed. A man has nipples, a woman has nipples. Like I said, if you view the female breast as a sexual object then that's how you view them and if the breast is a sexual organ then couldn't breast feeding be considered incest? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luvin1stdegree 0 Posted September 10, 2003 I just had to see what all the fuss was about so I asked VBG and he sent me a clip of the scene that offended you. I, for one, found the scene to be more humorous than sexual. Her line, "whatever you're about to say, I don't wanna hear it" together with the look she gave Lt. Reed just cracked me up. Regardless of whether ENT added the scene for ratings or not, I didn't see anything offensive or disgusting about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted September 10, 2003 I can't remember where, but I read that the sexual organs are those that develop durring puberty, that includes the changes to the genitals and the development of breasts. They don't have to be involved in sex to be a sexual organ. Too me, a bare chested woman is the same as a man with his pants down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Klingonmike 0 Posted September 10, 2003 Enterprise has never shown a bare chested female! So whats the problem? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted September 10, 2003 Hoshi was bare chested. I'm sorry, but having ones arms crossed over their breasts just doesn't cut it as "covered" as far as I am concerned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pirate Elf 0 Posted September 10, 2003 To get really biological and technical, female breasts are secondary sexual characteristics. Primary being the genitals. So they're not sexual organs. Personally, the exposure of skin doesn't bother me. Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing more from the guys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Klingonmike 0 Posted September 10, 2003 (edited) Sorry to disagree but if she has her arms covering her chest then she is not bare chested,she is covered. Star trek has always shown skin,they showed it in TOS,TNG,DS9 and Voyager. Back when they filmed TOS Gene Roddenberry was always getting in trouble with the censors who believed the episodes exposed too much skin! It just boggles my mind when I see your views on sexuality,I'm sorry to say but they are very prudish,now don't take offense I understand that was the way your raised and thats ok but its still just boggles my mind. You must go nuts when you go to the beach! Word of advice,don't ever go to Miami Beach,the girls are allowed to go topless and wear thongs, and further north to Haulover Beach it's a totally nude beach,and there are alot of famlies at these beaches. Edited September 10, 2003 by Klingonmike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted September 10, 2003 (edited) A man without his shirt is not nudity. Semantics, shemantics, it can still be thought inspiring. CJLP, I have to admit I am at a total loss to understand why you object to nudity - and this is a sincere question and I'm trying to pick on you. I could understand if it were an issue of modesty or morality but you're okay with partial nudity and suggestiveness so I really don't understand. Edited September 10, 2003 by TheUnicornHunter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted September 11, 2003 There's nothing we can do about seggestiveness and a man without his shirt is not partial nudity. If he dropped his pants, then you'd have partial nudity. Anywho, for me, it's about morallity. My objection to nudity is grounded in my faith. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pirate Elf 0 Posted September 11, 2003 Okay, having just watched the season premiere, I have to say the "nudity" wasn't that bad. In fact, I found the whole scene with T'Pol and Tripp hilarious. I seriously had tears in my eyes, I was laughing so hard. But that's just me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ddillard 2 Posted September 11, 2003 Myself I do not see any difference in the scenes where the woman are covering their breasts with their arms and the ones where the men are without their shirts. And either way I have no problem with it. I do not feel that breasts are sexual objects unless the person looking at them sees them in a sexual way. Below is the definition of breast from the dictionary is listed below. breast ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brst)n. Either of two milk-secreting, glandular organs on the chest of a woman; the human mammary gland. A corresponding organ in other mammals. A corresponding rudimentary gland in the male. The superior ventral surface of the human body, extending from the neck to the abdomen. A corresponding part in other animals. The part of a garment that covers the chest. The seat of affection and emotion: “Griefs of mine own lie heavy in my breast” (Shakespeare). A source of nourishment. Something likened to the human breast: the breast of a hill. The face of a mine or tunnel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
