DS9 Battles...

[Gary Phaserman 0]

I was recently watching several Dominion War episodes, featuring battles. What amazed me is how quickly the Galaxy class went from being an explorer to what amounts to a Battleship. I never really considered the Galaxy class to be a truely powerful warship (I think Voyager outgunned it), but watching the Dominion War episodes, those things suddenly became a whole lot more deadly. but, I have to wonder, would the Federation, faced with impending invasion, have began building purpose-built battleships? I've always kind of assumed they did. DS9 Tech Manual says Galaxy class starships under construction were launched with bare-bones internal gear, and had added weapons.

 

So, here's my question. You are the Chief of Tactical Operations for the Federation. Do you commission a design for a purpose-built battleship to counter the Dominion threat? Or do you refit present classes?

 

My answer is yes. The Dominion's "Heavy Cruisers" look to be the equal of a Galaxy in size, and appear to outgun it. And then there's the Dominion Battleships, which are just outrageously huge and powerful. I would have ordered a ship built that had the power to at least some equality. the Soveriegn Class is a good starting point, and is easily expanded. I'd probably lengthen the design, widen it, and add more weapons. Now, granted, this isn't exactly a new idea. the USS Iowa in the American Navy was an expansion and upgrade on a previous class of warship. And several Cruiser designs were similar to that family of warships. Look at a picture of USS St. Paul, and you'll see a remarkable similarity to the Iowa class...But, I would have probably commissioned several different purpose-built warships. The Light Cruiser job was already filled by the Akiras, and the Corvette/Light Frigate roll was easily filled by Defiant. But, that still leaves a light warship between the Akira and the Defiant, and a Cruiser and Heavy Cruiser design, plus a battleship.

 

What say you?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named 2]

I don't think we could answer that without knowing what it would take to convert existing ships to warships and what it would take to design, build, and commission warships from scratch.

[Gary Phaserman 0]

good point. How many extra meters/kilometers of power conduits would it take to add a second forward torpedo tube to a Galaxy, or to add more phaser arrays, the like. I mean, we can design a warship NOW on the computer over a period of several months. I imagine with the technology in the 24th Century, they could do it in alot less time, and be able to accurately prototype it better than we can now. It took about 8 months to build the LCS, which is about 350 feet long. with 24th Century construction techniques, and during a wartime situation, you could probably build a "small" starship, say Intrepid class, in a short time.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named 2]

What we need to know is what resources would be consumed by retrofiting, say, a Galaxy class for wartime duty vs. building, say, an Intrepid class from scratch and what the return on investment would be in terms of increased firepower, maneuverability, speed, etc. We are talking fiction here so we don't really know this information.

 

Retrofiting an existing Galaxy could provides the same increase in firepower that a new Intrepid could for a third of the cost. However, it wouldn't be as maneuverable or be able to take as much damage. (Remember, the Enterprise was taken down in Generations with a single shot.) So it all depends on what your different (and possibly conflicting) goals are in starship design and deployment. A Galaxy class could be retrofitted to hold more phaser strips or whatever than an Intrepid could since it has more surface area, and because its warp core is bigger it can achieve higher warp speeds, but that may be of little use if it can't corner well and a single shot can bring it down.

 

To confuse the question evem more, a third option is a ship like the Nebula class with modules that can be "swaped out" depending on the needs of a specific mission or series of missions.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Lt. Van Roy

[Jack_Bauer 1]

For the record, the Galaxy class far outgunned the Intrepid class. The Galaxy class has twelve phaser arrays and can carry 250 photon torpedoes (and that comes from before the Dominion War), while the Intrepid class had five phaser arrays and could only carry 55 photon torpedoes (built when tensions with the Dominion were fairly high).

 

The Defiant was also built primarily to fight the Borg and is more of a battle ship than most other Starfleet ships because of fears of the Borg. After Wolf 359, Starfleet did upgrade the weapons on most of its ships as it introduced the First Contact -Dominion War designs (Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre, Norway, etc).

 

Starfleet ships have always been well-armed, but they're not built primarily for battle. Its basically what Starfleet is: a well-armed exploration organization, because they realize what they have special and there is a need to defend it. My view of Starfleet has always been that its an exploration organization but you do not want to mess with them because they are not pushovers. For what I think best sums up this debate, see my post in the following thread:

 

http://www.startrekfans.net/index.php?showtopic=3779

[He Who Shall Not Be Named 2]

Sure a single Galaxy class may have more weaponry than a single Intrepid, but then it is a larger ship. What matters is weaponry per square foot. Ignoring other concerns such as speed, maneuverability, and robustness if an Intrepid has 1/3 of the weapons a Galaxy has but you can build 3 of them for the same cost then you have 3:1 equivalency as far as firepower goes.

 

The decision of what classes of ships to produce or retrofit are going to be made at a very high level, so they are not going to look at building individual ships but fleets of ships. What you DON'T want to do, however, is send a Galaxy class ship on a mission where they will be, say, beaming down a small landing party. A smaller ship can do that and it would be a waste of resources to send the larger ship.

[MrPsychic 1]

If you look at the battles themselves, you'll see a large number of Miranda and Excelsior class ships. I've wondered if they just pulled them out of mothballs or if they built them before the war.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named 2]

If you read the DS9 Technical Manual you see all kinds of hybrid ships with parts taken from several different classes, even Constitution (albeit post-refit).

[ARMS 0]

The most effective ships during that war was the Defiant and the Prometheus, other ships were good for battles but not exactly designed for it.

[Hooray for boobies 0]

My view of Starfleet has always been that its an exploration organization but you do not want to mess with them because they are not pushovers.

 

That is their claimed ambition anyway. But if I understand it they are also charged with the defence of the federation which tends to make them military.

 

Following the Borg invasions tehy also construct ships specifically intended for battle, like the Defiant class, and by what it would seem all the smaller classes in FC.

 

The Galaxy class is a differenct beast. Designed to work on it's own in deep space exploration. A sort of multi-role ship. It does seem to carry the same kind of weapons as all other ships though, and more of them.

 

But in the world of Star Trek it appears that even the smaller ships are capable of carrying the heaviest kind of weaponry. That would make the very large Galaxy class unsuitable for wartime construction. If any were nearly finished they may have been completed to free up the docks, but otherwise I suspect they were suspended in favour of smaller ships quicker to build.

 

Existing Galaxy ships would have been used by Star Fleet as support vessels, using they large arsenals to provide fire support for the smaller strike ships. I doubt it would be worth spending any time to rebuild them, though most likely civilians were disembarked and they were worked by a skeleton crew.

 

I don't know what to make of the new Sovereign ships. I suspect from their size that they are explorers like the Galaxys, but it has only appeared in movies yet, and the movies tend to be more action oriented and only the ships battle qualities have been highlighted so far.

 

As for other classes I can only make guesses.

 

Constitution class: Obsolete. If any were still available they might have been used in the desperate attempt to stop the borg at Wolf 359, but not much else.

 

Constellation class: Although they are old many were seen in service throughout TNG. I doubt they were intended for battle at this time though.

 

Miranda classes: Used for many purposes. Seem to exist in massive numbers. Perhaps a mass production design in it's time.

 

Ambassador, Galaxy and Nebula classes: Explorers, built to operate on their own.

 

Excelsior class: Generic cruiser design. Good range for liasons, fair arsenal and long active careers.

 

Various kitbash classes: Uncertain. May have been emergency designs completed quickly for the Borg crisis or the Dominion wars, or they may be natural developments from existing classes. Either way most of them seems to small for effective use as Explorers.

 

Defiant class: Purpose built bleeding edge warships. Not much use for anything else.

 

Sabre, Steamrunner, Norway classes: Most likely cheaper fighting ships build for the Borg crisis. They seem small and their other uses are uncertain.

 

Akira class: Medium cruiser type. Somewhere between Mirandas and Excelsiors, perhaps for similar uses.

 

Intrepid and Nova classes: Not sure. Maybe intended to replace the Mirandas for various science duties. Quite small, but yet seem not to be purpose built for battle.

 

Prometheus: As far as I know it was experimental suggesting there was only one of it.

 

 

 

Either way faced with an enemy that outnumbers them as much as the dominion does, Starfleet would like press any ship they had available into service, wether suitable or not.

 

Constructing new ships would be preferrable but probably not feasible as it would take to long to get them ready. Instead the older ships must be used and replaced by new designs as they become available or the old ones are destroyed.

[Krissy Phaserman 0]

I like the idea of a big fleet of relatively small "Destroyer" and "Frigate" type ships, because they match well with the other alpha quadrant threats: Cardassian Galor and Keldon class starships, Klingon Vor'Cha class attack cruisers, and the Breen Warships. Now, the Dominion had a massive fleet of small attack ships (Smaller than the Defiant) which were obviously larger than fighters, but were smaller than Starfleet's "Escort" warship. the Defiant class matched up well against them, but the Dominion also had a fleet of large, 600 meter cruisers and several of the 1200 meter battleships (we saw many that looked MUCH larger in "What you leave behind"). I would think Starfleet needs a ship that can match these. The Jem Hadar Battleship swatted down the Valiant as if it were nothing more than a fly. And yes, Valiant took a pounding, but it shows that even a group of these smaller ships can't really handle the big boys. So, what do you do?

 

2371: Outbreak of War is not a certainty yet, but is a strong possibility. Starfleet has 2 major shipyards, UPFY and Anteres. Anteres will begin production of smaller warships (Defiant, Intrepid, and Akira class starships. Corvette, Destroyer, and Light Cruiser type ships). Let's say UPFY has 3 Galaxy and 2 Soveriegn class starships at between 65 and 75 percent complete. THis means their hulls are probably close to being finished, but they are lacking alot of their systems. I have them converted to warship specs in anticipation of an outbreak.

 

I'd also bring in several Galaxy class starships and have them refitted. Also, I'd activate ships in the Fleet Reserve force. Some may be outdated, but if a war is coming, we need all the ships we can get.

 

I'd also start building a battleship class, probably at UPFY (It's in Sector 001, probably better defended than Anteres). I'd start by taking a design that is easily scalable. The Soveriegn class seems to be the most scalable design in the Federation Inventory, so that's my design. UPFY designs the ship, and hopefully within 6 months (under an accelerated development schedule), the keel is laid on the first TWO ships of the class. This would coincide with an expansion of the production capabilities of the yard, to allow for rapid ship-building. By the 8 month mark, the five converted warships are in space, conducting their trails. using a tried and true modular construction method, the sections of the Battleships (called Supersections) would be coming together. by the 12 month mark, nearing the outbreak of hostilities, these two ships would be 40-50% complete. (Assuming that all the supersections are being constructed in lock-step). while they are being built, the crews are being trained on them. No new systems would be developed for these ships, simply making them from off-the-shelf components would reduce the lead-time.

 

2372: Anteres is still producing the smaller warships, and UPFY is building more small warships and refitting ships from the fleet reserve. UPFY, the larger of the two shipyards, is also building the two battleships. After 15 months, the ships' hulls are complete, and are undergoing fitting out. Slowly, the fleet begins to come together. Keels are being laid for the second pair of battleships at UPFY. War breaks out at the end of the year.

 

2373: The war is progressing, and finally the two first battleships are ready for trials. Minor defects are fixed, and they are certified and given over to the fleet. UPFY is now at full war production. having expanded 300% to help the war effort, and Anteres expanding 200%, ships are being produced and repaired quicker. Smaller yards are built in the Sol, Vulcan, and Centuri systems to accomodate repairs. Construction is begun on a new class, a battlecruiser, another Soveriegn class off-shot. These ships are built four at a time, replacing Galaxy and Soveriegn class constructions. Using the same modular construction techniques as the battleships, the first four, built in january, will be ready for use by March of 2374.

 

2374: The first four battlecruisers, now complete, join with the two battleships, and several smaller ships to create a Battleship Strike Group. Not assigned to any specific fleet, the Strike Group is made available on a needs-basis. Strike Group participates in several major engagements, destroying a Dominion Battleship thought to be responsible for the loss of USS Valiant. Second pair of battleships nearing completion.

 

2375: the next four battlecruisers join the fleet. Production is now outpacing losses, due in large part to the stalemate in the war. Operation Final Assault launches, with the 8 battlecruisers and two battleships. three of the Battlecruisers and one of the Battleships are lost during the engagement, but it is successful. By the end of the year, with the war over, Starfleet places the newly finished battleships in the Fleet Reserve. They elect not to destroy them, citing "Future conflicts" as a reason for keeping the warships.

[LCARS 24 0]

Akira--15 torpedo launchers, quickly spits out fighters, lots of firepower, protected bridge, with four large impluse engines highly maneuverable.

 

[robjkay 0]

The Galaxy Class is an Explorer of which can be compaired to a heavy cruiser. Before the Soverign Class was built the Galaxy Class was SF most powerful ship! During the Dominion War Galaxies where uprated carrying the follow weapons.

 

Uprated Galaxy

14 Type X phaser arrays total output 70,000 TeraWatts

2 x Type 3 burst fire photon torpedo

 

Regular Galaxy

12 Type X phaser arrays total output 50,000 TeraWatts

2 Type 3 burst fire photon torpedo

 

Also there seems to be a third version of the Galaxy Class to where Ablative armour was added.

[robjkay 0]

What we need to know is what resources would be consumed by retrofiting, say, a Galaxy class for wartime duty vs. building, say, an Intrepid class from scratch and what the return on investment would be in terms of increased firepower, maneuverability, speed, etc. We are talking fiction here so we don't really know this information.

 

Retrofiting an existing Galaxy could provides the same increase in firepower that a new Intrepid could for a third of the cost. However, it wouldn't be as maneuverable or be able to take as much damage. (Remember, the Enterprise was taken down in Generations with a single shot.) So it all depends on what your different (and possibly conflicting) goals are in starship design and deployment. A Galaxy class could be retrofitted to hold more phaser strips or whatever than an Intrepid could since it has more surface area, and because its warp core is bigger it can achieve higher warp speeds, but that may be of little use if it can't corner well and a single shot can bring it down.

 

To confuse the question evem more, a third option is a ship like the Nebula class with modules that can be "swaped out" depending on the needs of a specific mission or series of missions.

 

In ST Generations it was stated by the Klingons that there BOP was no match for the Enterprise.

 

The reason the BOP was able to take on the Enterprise is because they altered Geordi's VISOR so the Duras sisters could see what Gerodi was seeing. Due to this they were able to optain the Enterprise shield frequencies. This is how they were able to fire upon the Enterprise basicaly destroying it because its shield were useless. It was not because the Galaxy Class is a weak ship!!!

 

Also a basic Galaxy Class has more firepower then a Intrepid, also A Galaxy can stay in a fight a lot longer then a Intrepid. The Galaxies were very usefull in the Dominion war being it was SF most powerfull ship and thats why we see alot of Galaxies in various war scenes and no Intrepids!

 

 

2371: Outbreak of War is not a certainty yet, but is a strong possibility. Starfleet has 2 major shipyards, UPFY and Anteres. Anteres will begin production of smaller warships (Defiant, Intrepid, and Akira class starships. Corvette, Destroyer, and Light Cruiser type ships). Let's say UPFY has 3 Galaxy and 2 Soveriegn class starships at between 65 and 75 percent complete. THis means their hulls are probably close to being finished, but they are lacking alot of their systems. I have them converted to warship specs in anticipation of an outbreak.

 

 

SF had alot more the just two shipyards!

 

40 Eridani A Starfleet Construction Yards

Antares Ship Yards

Baikonur Cosmodrome

Beta Antares Ship Yards

Copernicus Ship Yards

Earth Station McKinley

Marin County Starfleet Yards

Oakland Fleet Yards

Proxima Maintenance Yards

San Francisco Fleet Yards (also known as San Francisco Naval Yards or San Francisco Yards)

Tranquility Base

University of Copernicus

Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards (also known as Utopia Planitia Ship Yards)