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Madame Butterfly

Judge Rules School Pledge Unconstitutional

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The United States was founded a Christian nation and has always been a Christian nation and will always be a Christian nation.

 

Sorry, but you are incorrect. The United States has NO state religion. It was NOT founded as a Christian nation. It very well could be a country with a large amount of Christians, but that's entirely different.

 

And all despite the best efforts of opposing groups trying to change that.

Its not PC to say that.But ask me if I care.

 

It doesn't need to be changed, because it's never actually existed. This "Christian States Of America" you think you may live in is in fact a delusion.

 

If someone doesn't like the fact that we are "one nation under God",then they can leave.

 

Actually they don't have to leave. American citizenship has no religious criteria. It's absurd to suggest that if someone doesn't believe in your god that they must leave the nation.

 

America has become the world's sole super power due in large part to our acknowledgement of God as the source of our inspiration and strength.I can already hear atheists and non-Christians ranting about that fact,but their rants make that fact no less true.

 

America has become the world's sole-superpower due to it's large population, development of nuclear and military technology, vast mineral wealth and natural resources, generally effective government and a robust economy.

 

The idea that America is powerful simply because some people may believe in a god is absurd. You think that ranting about it makes it "less true". I'm afraid the fact that your assumptions are false are what makes it "less true".

 

It's no surprise that as Europe moved further away from Christianity and more toward secularism,it's influence has wained.It's no suprise that an aethiestic state like the USSR fell flat on its face,or that similar nations like North Korea have millions starving and disease run rampant.

 

Europe's influence has waned in the sense that the old empires no longer exist (except for the British Commonwealth which came from the Empire). But those Empires collapsed due to the fact they were greatly expensive to maintain when granting independence was far easier, along with native rebellions. The fall of the Soviet Union and the terrible state of North Korea have more to do with ineffective inept government and stagnant economies rather than a belief in a god or gods.

 

You may not know it,but here in the United States we've always been a monarchy.Our Lord and King is Jesus Christ.No body will EVER change that.

 

I didn't know it because I'm afraid you are incorrect. The United States Of America is a federal republic. Not a monarchy, and not a theocracy.

Edited by HRH The KING

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First off, no, this nation wasn't founded as a "Christian nation" in the strictist interpretation of the term. It was, however, formed on Christian principles. Research into the background of the founding fathers and the foundational moments of the U.S. will prove that well-enough.

 

Should they eliminate sex education - no. Should parents be allowed to opt their child out - IMO, no. A balanced curriculum should be taught but unfortunately balance is most often what is objectionable. Study after study on teen sexuality have shown teens don't have the information necessary to make informed decisions.

 

If a parent is offended by the teaching of the Theory of Evolution then they should enroll their child in a religious school that teaches creationism. Creationism should not be taught in a science class because it is not science.

 

The public school system should be at the very least a secular system. If a parent wants religious matters taught then they have the right to enroll their child in a non-secular school or supplement their education at home or through their church.

 

You say this though, Takara, because you hold these secular beliefs. There is a large chunk of the population that believes (and rightly so, in my opinion) that evolution is just as much a "faith" as Creationism (King, not now; I don't have the time. :laugh: ). As you yourself stated, TS, evolution is a theory. Unfortunately, it seems to be taught as fact in most public schools. A truly balanced education would teach both or neither. Rather than letting complete ignorance of the subject be the norm, I wouldn't mind having both forms taught and letting the kids decide for themselves.

 

You also say that kids in public school should be compelled to sit through public sex-education, even teaching a balanced format. As you say, though, the balance is even offensive to an extent. Unlike the topic of creation/evolution, I don't support a teaching of all types of sex-ed.

 

Teens should NOT be having sex, safe or otherwise. That's my strong opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

 

My sentiments aside, sex-ed is the type of subject that should be taught at home (even though most parents are sorely deficient in this area), or students should definitely be allowed to opt out of the class.

 

I actually think parents should sit through classes discussing ways to educate their children on the subject, but I digress...

 

The fact is, alot of people hold the same opinion I do on teen sex, and just as strongly.

 

As TUH was alluding, the real question is, "Whose toes get stepped on, and who has the right to decide that?"

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As TUH was alluding, the real question is, "Whose toes get stepped on, and who has the right to decide that?"

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Exactly,

 

I mostly agree with the rest of Ace's post.

 

Regarding evolution, actually, the soon to retire Justice O'Connor did recommend in one of her opinions that she didn't see a legal prohibition against acknowledging other points of view under what she defined as accomodation. In fact, in my idea of "education" presenting students with all the theories and the "facts" and teaching them to think and make decisions for themselves is the best way to go. To say "you must believe this because we say so" doesn't seem like education, IMO. However, as I said before the issue isn't who is "right" on the subject of evolution but what gives one group the right to impose on another and who decides when one gets protected and which doesn't?

 

As for the intent of the founding fathers; well, law journals and law library bookshelves are filled with analysis of that topic. Anyone assuming they have a simplistic answer overlooks the complexity of the issue.

 

For one thing, most present day writers seem to overlook that several of the original 13 colonies did have a state sponsored religion and one possible explanation of the founding fathers intent is to avoid stepping on state's toes.

 

See footnote 10 caselaw

 

http://www.undergodprocon.org/pop/statereligions.htm

 

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel05.html

 

Although, it is true that some groups did flee their native European countries to avoid persecution - with the possible exception of Pennsylania religious freedom wasn't the norm in colonial America or even post Constitution American. (I think William Penn is a much under appreciated founding father - he had some very enlightened ideas on government)

 

Here's the rant part:

All the above brings up my favorite question. Regardless of what the founding fathers intended or not - what is best for the world today? Some people seem to think that pushing religion into the closet will make a tolerant society. IMO, hogwash. If we as a society can not learn to tolerate the differences of opinion that exist and that means the non-religious for the religious and the religious for both the non-religious and for different religions then we are in trouble as a nation. Should we divide up the country and make geographical assignments by religion - I would be separated from all of my family if we did that? Should people of religious backgrounds be forced to deny their existence - or forced out of government - in other word having every aspect of their lives dictated by special interest groups who care nothing for them or their rights or their well being? How can anyone label themselves tolerant and then suggest that taxpayers must fork out money to support public schools that persecute them and at the same time fork out more money to pay for tuition at private schools so their children can avoid persecution?

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I'm a Christian and I have "faith" in evolution. I believe that evolution and creationism are one and the same because I am educated enough to understand that the men who wrote the Bible were incapable of understanding evolutionary theory, the Big Bang, or whatever else occured. I've come to the decision through much soul-searching that the entire first part of the Old Testament, from Creation to the Flood, is just a huge simplified synopsis. It doesn't matter to me how God did these things, nor how long it may have taken Him to do them. That is not the point of the Bible -- it is not a science textbook and was never intended to be.

 

That being said, I absolutely DO NOT want my public school teaching my child that "creationism" as it is presented in the Book of Genesis is a valid scientific theory. And if my son brings home a Biology text with some sort of sticker disclaimer in the opening flap regarding Creationism, I'm tearing it out. I will not condone the perpetuation of ignorance.

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Susan, first "evolution" isn't the topic of this thread and second, as I've said - the point isn't what you believe but who has the right to decide to what everyone else "must" believe.

 

That's the question I'm waiting for someone to answer.

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the point isn't what you believe but who has the right to decide to what everyone else "must" believe.

 

That's the question I'm waiting for someone to answer.

 

No one has the right to decide what everyone else must believe.

 

The actual point of the thread is that a pledge of loyalty to a god (whatever god it may be) is blended into a pledge of loyalty to the nation which is made in a public school.

 

If the Supreme Court do their job properly, then they MUST either remove those two words "Under God" from the pledge, or simply ban that particular version of the pledge from being spoken in public schools.

 

If they decide to use ideology in their judgement, then they'll say "Well, it does blend a religion into public schools but since our own political opinions support a role for religion in government institutions, we are going to allow it anyway".

 

Which I would consider absurd and it makes the U.S. Supreme Court look like a joke.

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Susan, first "evolution" isn't the topic of this thread and second, as I've said - the point isn't what you believe but who has the right to decide to what everyone else "must" believe

 

That's the question I'm waiting for someone to answer.

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Sorry, someone brought it up a few posts back and it's definitely one of my hot buttons.

 

I don't care what everyone else believes and I don't care whether they believe what I believe ...

 

My point is that public schools have no business promoting anything religious whatsoever ... whether it is a nation "under God" or "Creationism" as scientific theory or abstinence based on religious beliefs in sex-ed classes.

 

When the right tries to force us all to read the Ten Commandments on public property, accept Creationism as science, push our citizens to pledge their allegiance to a nation "under God" .... that is just wrong. Just as wrong as the left pushing their atheist agenda on the rest of us. However, by eliminating the overtly Christian language from public life, no one is deciding what I must believe .... I feel no pressure to suddenly deny the existence of Christ just because I didn't see the Ten Commandments on the grounds of the courthouse or because "under God" has been removed from the pledge.

 

Just me.

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HRH, I disagree - The same First Amendment that prohibits the government from establishing a federal religion also bars the same government from making laws restricting free exercise.

 

If children were forced to repeat the pledge I would be the first to argue against it. But that isn't the question because participation is voluntary. The issue is whether other people can be prohibited from saying it.

 

And there is a technical distinction of your argument - the pledge is to the flag and to the republic for which it stands - the term "under God" is used only as an adjective to define the term "nation." Historically the phrase "under God" had been an accurate "adjective" of the US. They may be troubling to some but it is historically accurate.

 

As for the SC, one of the tests used by the SC to determine a First Amendment violation is the Lemon Test

The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose;

The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; and

The government's action must not result in an "excessive entanglement" of the government and religion.

 

If the words "under God" fail to pass scrutiny it would likely be on the "excessive entanglement" prong of the test - what I guess you term "blending". Of course every word of that definition will be debated.

 

For what it's worth - in US history religion has always had a role in government.

 

The bottom line is, if the SC bans the pledge they will be imposing one persons beliefs on another - jsut as much so as requiring students to repeat it would be.

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HRH, I disagree - The same First Amendment that prohibits the government from establishing a federal religion also bars the same government from making laws restricting free exercise.

 

But the "free exercise" of the pledge containing religious references may violate the first part of the Establishment Clause, since it is a case of religion being featured in a public institution, IE: Public schools.

 

If children were forced to repeat the pledge I would be the first to argue against it. But that isn't the question because participation is voluntary. The issue is whether other people can be prohibited from saying it.

 

Even if they weren't forced to say it. It still could be interpreted as exclusion, since the pledge of the nation cannot be said without pledging the same loyalty to a god.

 

Why should a non-theist be unable to pledge loyalty to their nation simply because of a religious reference which they cannot pledge loyalty to?

 

It's the blending of the two that is the problem. It implies that to pledge loyalty to your nation, you MUST pledge loyalty to a god.

 

And there is a technical distinction of your argument - the pledge is to the flag and to the republic for which it stands - the term "under God" is used only as an adjective to define the term "nation." Historically the phrase "under God" had been an accurate "adjective" of the US. They may be troubling to some but it is historically accurate.

 

It doesn't matter. The term "Under God" can still be intepreted as a religious element.

 

It should be removed from the Pledge.

 

If the words "under God" fail to pass scrutiny it would likely be on the "excessive entanglement" prong of the test - what I guess you term "blending". Of course every word of that definition will be debated.

 

For what it's worth - in US history religion has always had a role in government.

 

The bottom line is, if the SC bans the pledge they will be imposing one persons beliefs on another - jsut as much so as requiring students to repeat it would be.

 

There may be politicians in the U.S. who are religious, but officially there is no state religion in the United States and no official role for any religion in the government.

 

It wouldn't be imposing one person's belief on another. It would simply be removing a reference which honestly should NEVER have been used in the pledge.

Edited by HRH The KING

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The First Amendment states that there shall be no law respecting any religion. This means that forcing kids to say the Pledge as it is (with the words "under God" in it) is a violation of the First Amendment.

 

The First Amendment also states that there shall be no law prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, which means that preventin kids from saying the Pledge as it is is also a violation of the First Amendment.

 

Basically, the Christians cannot say that all kids must say the Pledge, and the atheists cannot say that no kids can say the Pledge. So they can both shove the issue straight up their prosteriors. And like it.

 

The Pledge is not unconstitutional. The words "under God," if forced, is.

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Which is why simply removing those words would solve the problem.

 

You can still pledge loyalty to your nation and not have to pledge loyalty to a god.

 

Meanwhile religious people can pledge loyalty to their nation and pledge loyalty to their god in their own time and not on public school property.

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Historically, the involvement of religion in government has been a lot more involved than there being a few religious politicians.

 

And, as I've repeated - the mention of religion is not prohibited (I'm not saying the history of the US regarding religious freedom has been a pretty picture). But the hostility currently being exhibited towards religion is just the flip side of the same coin.

 

Removing the words "under God" will not solve the problem. Do you honestly think the athiests can say "nya nya we've won -you lost - you don't have the right to exist" (which is how a SC decision in their favor will be interpreted) and everything will be all peacefullly resolved? If you do you don't know much about human nature.

 

However, I think WF sums it up pretty well.

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Historically, the involvement of religion in government has been a lot more involved than there being a few religious politicians.

 

Which itself would be unconstitutional if religion was being blended with government.

 

And, as I've repeated - the mention of religion is not prohibited (I'm not saying the history of the US regarding religious freedom has been a pretty picture). But the hostility currently being exhibited towards religion is just the flip side of the same coin.

 

It's not necessarily hostility but rather a desire for the law to be applied properly and fairly, rather than it being applied unfairly simply because a judge may be religious themselves and are unable of objectivity.

 

Removing the words "under God" will not solve the problem. Do you honestly think the athiests can say "nya nya we've won -you lost - you don't have the right to exist" (which is how a SC decision in their favor will be interpreted) and everything will be all peacefullly resolved? If you do you don't know much about human nature.

 

I think you are unfairly stereotyping Atheists. As for "peacefully" resolved, are you implying that religious people will resort to violence if the Supreme Court ruled in favour of modifying or scrapping the pledge?

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It is simple TUH, who ever has the most power will make the rules. I how ever will teach my kids what I want them to believe and when they grow up they will believe what they want.

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America wasn't founded a Christian nation?

Oh,really?

 

There are many today who would doubt or deny that this is true. There has even been an attempt to cover up and, in some cases, to destroy the legacy of Christian thinking that has gone into the formation of our republic. Yet what were the true thoughts and intentions of the men and women who came before us?

 

A careful look into the past reveals landmarks which were essential in guiding America along the pathway that led us to where we are today. More often than not, at each one of these landmarks, there also appears irrefutable evidence that a sense of divine destiny accompanied the most important events of our history.

 

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Here in part are some of these landmarks:

 

1490-1492 - Columbus' commission was given to set out to find a new world.

 

According to Columbus' personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to "bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. .... It was the Lord who put into my mind ... that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies ... I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely ... No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service." (Columbus' Book of Prophecies)

 

April 10, 1606 - The Charter for the Virginia Colony read in part:

 

"To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God."

 

November 3, 1620 - King James I grants the Charter of the Plymouth council.

 

"In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty."

 

November 11, 1620 - The Pilgrims sign the Mayflower Compact aboard the Mayflower, in Plymouth harbor.

 

"For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith ... doe by these presents solemnly & mutually in ye presence of God and one of another, covenant & combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick."

 

March 4, 1629 - The first Charter of Massachusetts read in part:

 

"For the directing, ruling, and disposeing of all other Matters and Thinges, whereby our said People may be soe religiously, peaceablie, and civilly governed, as their good life and orderlie Conversacon, maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intencon, and The Adventurers free profession, is the principall Ende of the Plantacion.."

 

January 14, 1638 - The towns of Hartford, Weathersfield and Windsor adopt the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.

 

"To mayntayne and presearve the liberty and purity of the Gospell of our Lord Jesus, which we now professe..."

 

August 4, 1639 - The governing body of New Hampshire is established.

 

"Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such government as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God..."

 

September 26, 1642 - The rules and precepts that were to govern Harvard were set up.

 

"Let every Student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3 and therefore to lay Christ in the bottome, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdome, Let every one seriously set himselfe by prayer in secret to seeke it of him Prov. 2.3."

 

Harvard College was founded on Christi Gloriam and later dedicated Christo et Ecclesiae. The founders of Harvard believed that "all knowledge without Christ was vain."

 

The charter of Yale University clearly expressed the purpose for which the school was founded: "Whereas several well disposed and Publick spirited Persons of their sincere Regard to & zeal for upholding & propagating of the Christian Protestant Religion ... youth may be instructed in the Arts & Sciences who through the blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick employment both in Church & Civil State."

 

In addition to Harvard and Yale, 106 out of the first 108 schools in America were founded on the Christian faith.

 

April 3, 1644 - The New Haven Colony adopts their charter.

 

"That the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses ... be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction ..."

 

1647 - Governor William Bradford publishes Of Plimouth Plantation.

 

"Lastly, (and which was not least,) a great hope and inward zeall they (the Pilgrims) had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for ye propagation and advancing of ye gospell or ye kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of ye world; yea, though they should be but stepping-stones unto others for ye performing of so great a work ... their desires were set on ye ways of God, and to employ his ordinances; but they rested on his providence, and know whom they had beleeved."

 

April 21, 1649 - The Maryland Toleration Act is passed.

 

"Be it therefore ... enacted ... that no person or persons whatsoever within this province ... professing to believe in Jesus Christ shall ... henceforth be any ways troubled, molested (or disapproved of) ... in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof ..."

 

April 25, 1689 - The Great Law of Pennsylvania is passed.

 

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government ... therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ..."

 

May 20, 1775 - North Carolina passes the Mecklenburg County Resolutions.

 

"We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of a right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no other power than that of our God and the general government of Congress."

 

Summer 12, 1775 - Continental Congress issues a call to all citizens to fast and pray and confess their sin that the Lord might bless the land.

 

"And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and to abstain from servile labor and recreation on said day."

 

Summer 2-4, 1776 - Declaration of Independence written and signed.

 

"We hold these truths ... that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights ... appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world ... And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence..."

 

As the Declaration was being signed, Samuel Adams said: "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let his kingdom come."

 

On the same day, Benjamin Franklin suggested that the national motto be: "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

 

Historian and philosopher G.K. Chesterton said of the founding of America that it is "the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth in dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence."

 

September 17, 1787 - The Constitution of the United States is finished.

 

At least 50 out of the 55 men who framed the Constitution of the United States were professing Christians. (M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company, Plymouth Rock Foundation., 1982).

 

Eleven of the first 13 States required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as qualification for holding public office.

 

The Constitution of each of the 50 States acknowledges and calls upon the Providence of God for the blessings of freedom.

 

1787 - James Madison, the "architect" of the federal Constitution and fourth president:

 

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future .. upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."

 

April 30, 1789 - Washington gives his First Inaugural Address.

 

"My fervent supplications to that Almighty Being Who rules over the universe, Who presides in the council of nations, and Whose providential aid can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by Himself for these essential purposes."

 

March 11, 1792 - President George Washington:

 

"I am sure that never was a people who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency which so often manifested in the Revolution."

 

December 20, 1820 - Daniel Webster, Plymouth Massachusetts:

 

"Let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers brought hither their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate ... and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political and literary."

 

July 4, 1821 - John Quincy Adams:

 

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration ... they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct."

 

1833 - Noah Webster:

 

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles ... This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions and government ... the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws."

 

1841 - Alexis de Tocqueville (Democracy in America):

 

"In the United States of America the sovereign authority is religious ... there is no other country in the world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America."

 

Summer 8, 1845 - President Andrew Jackson asserts:

 

"The Bible is the rock upon which our Republic rests."

 

February 11, 1861 - Abraham Lincoln, farewell at Springfield, Illinois:

 

"Unless the great God who assisted (Washington) shall be with me and aid me, I must fail; but if the same Omniscient Mind and Mighty Arm that directed and protected him shall guide and support me, I shall not fail ... Let us all pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now."

 

Lincoln on the Bible:

 

"In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it, we would not know right from wrong. All things most desireable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it." (George L. Hunt, Calvinism and the Political Order, Westminster Press, 1965, p.33)

 

1884 - U.S. Supreme Court reiterates the Declaration's reference to our rights as being God-given.

 

These inherent rights have never been more happily expressed than in the Declaration of Independence, "we hold these truths to be self-evident" that is, so plain that their truth is recognized upon their mere statement "that all men are endowed" - not by edicts of emperors, or by decrees of parliament, or acts of Congress, but "by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and to secure these" - not grant them but secure them "governments are instituted among men."

 

1891 - The U.S. Supreme Court restates that America is a "Christian Nation."

 

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian ... this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation ... we find everywhere a clear definition of the same truth ... this is a Christian nation." (Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 143 US 457, 36 L ed 226, Justice Brewer)

 

1909 - President Theodore Roosevelt:

 

"After a week on perplexing problems ... it does so rest my soul to come into the house of The Lord and to sing and mean it, 'Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty' ... (my) great joy and glory that in occupying an exalted position in the nation, I am enabled, to preach the practical moralities of the Bible to my fellow-countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and Savior of the world." (Ferdinand C. Iglehart, Theodore Roosevelt - The Man As I knew Him, A.L. Burt, 1919)

 

1913 - President Woodrow Wilson:

 

"America was born to exemplify the devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the Holy Scriptures."

 

1952 - US Supreme Court defines the "Separation of Church and State."

 

"We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being ... No Constitutional requirement makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against the efforts to widen the scope of religious influence. The government must remain neutral when it comes to competition between sects ... The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every respect there shall be a separation of Church and State."

 

January 20, 1977 - President Jimmy Carter:

 

"Here before me is the Bible used in the inauguration of our first President in 1789, and I have just taken the oath of office on the Bible my mother gave me just a few years ago, opened to the timeless admonition from the ancient prophet Micah: 'He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God'" (Micah 6:2).

 

1980 - President Ronald Reagan:

 

"The time has come to turn to God and reassert our trust in Him for the Healing of America ... our country is in need of and ready for a spiritual renewal."

 

May 3, 1990 - President George Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer.

 

"The great faith that led our Nation's Founding Fathers to pursue this bold experience in self-government has sustained us in uncertain and perilous times; it has given us strength to this very day. Like them, we do very well to recall our 'firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,' to give thanks for the freedom and prosperity this nation enjoys, and to pray for continued help and guidance from our wise and loving Creator."

 

 

America's Christian Foundation

 

Of the 13 colonies, 9 had an official state church.

 

Thomas Jefferson [around 1802] recommended at one point that students at the University of Virginia be allowed to meet on campus to pray and worship together; and if need be, he said, to meet together with their professors and pray. *

 

Thomas Jefferson was the author of the first plan of public education adopted for the city of Washington D.C., which included among other things, the Bible and Isaac Watts' Hymnal as the principle books that would be used to teach reading in the public schools of Washington D.C.

 

 

In virtually every state, public office holders were required to affirm their belief in Biblical teachings. The Delaware Constitution prescribes this formal oath, "I do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, on God blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures in the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration." *

 

Maryland required an oath in the belief of the Christian religion for every state officer.

 

In 1777, the Continental Congress ordered 22,000 Bibles to be distributed in this country, "so that the people would be well-supplied with the political textbook of this nation."

 

 

 

Legal rulings

 

 

Vidal v. Girard -- 1844 -- Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament be read and taught as a divine revelation in the schools? Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament.

 

Runkel v. Winemiller -- 1796 -- By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion... ...and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same and equal footing.

 

House Judiciary Committee, Mar. 27, 1854:

 

Had the people, during the Revolution, had any suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle...

 

Notable Quotes

 

 

 

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (1816)

 

-- First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay

 

"I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses ... Whether we look to the first Charter of Virginia ... or to the Charter of New England ... or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay ... or to the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut ... the same objective is present ... a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people ... I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country."

 

--Supreme Court chief justice, Earl Warren

 

"... Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy word ... Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life. Bless, O Lord, all the people of this land."

 

-- George Washington

 

"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

 

-- George Washington

 

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with passions unbridled by morality and religion." "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand."

 

-- John Adams

 

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?"

 

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

"No power over the freedom of religion [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution."

 

-- James Madison

 

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

 

-- John Quincy Adams

 

"All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidelity to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship."

 

-- Grover Cleveland

 

"In this actual world, a churchless community, a community where men have abandoned and scoffed at, or ignored their religious needs, is a community on the rapid down-grade."

 

-- Teddy Roosevelt

 

"America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture."

 

-- Woodrow Wilson

 

"They [the Founding Fathers] were intent upon establishing a Christian commonwealth in accordance with the principle of self-government. They were an inspired body of men. It has been said that God sifted the nations that He might send choice grain into the wilderness ... Who can fail to see it in the hand of Destiny? Who can doubt that it has been guided by a Divine Providence?"

 

-- Calvin Coolidge

 

 

Funny...I don't see any references to Buddha,Mohammad,Krishna,Vashnu,or any other religious icons in U.S. history.Hmm...I wonder why?

 

Deny all you want.

Denial doesn't change history.

As I stated before America is a Christian nation.No rabid atheist foaming at the mouth is going to remove God from this country.He or she would sooner be able to soak up the oceans with a sponge.The same goes for revisionist university professors and others who are just plain ignorant of our nation's history and Christian origins.

 

Note: Added spoiler because of length of post.

Edited by Takara_Soong

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Just because the founding father were Christian and their faith controlled their actions to an extent when they formed this country, that doesn't mean that this is a Christian country. If it were, I highly doubt that the first amendment would say that Congress shall make no laws respecting any religion. One of the ideals of this country was for it to be free of religious persecution. If this country was a Christian country, such a thing would be impossible.

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:P

 

OMG,that's so sad!

 

:lol: Okay, the last 350-years of history never happened.

Whatever makes you atheists feel better.I don't know whether to laugh at you, or cry for you.

Pitiful.

 

Did you even read my post?

The Founding Fathers....

From Christopher Columbus on down to George W. Bush, from the first Supreme Court justice to the last, from the First Continental Congress to today's Congress, all have acknowledged the Christian basis for this country.

 

Oh,wow...

I hate repeating myself,but how sad.

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:lol: Okay, the last 350-years of history never happened.

353383[/snapback]

 

Apparently not, if you want to believe that this is a Christian nation. :P

 

The fact of the matter is, just because the founding father believed in the Christian God does not mean that they formed a Christian nation. It only means that they believed in the Christian God.

 

Anyway, you should either form a new topic about this as you've brought this conversation way off topic, or just be quiet about.

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OMG,that's so sad!

 

No, actually its very good.

 

The "Christian States Of America" would have been a nightmare.

 

Okay, the last 350-years of history never happened.

 

I certainly wish they hadn't. The last three and a half centuries of history have seen some terrible atrocities and acts of human depravity and destruction.

 

Whatever makes you atheists feel better.I don't know whether to laugh at you, or cry for you.

Pitiful.

 

Logic, rationality and fact make this particular Atheist feel better.

 

Don't cry for me......Argentina.

 

The Founding Fathers....

From Christopher Columbus on down to George W. Bush, from the first Supreme Court justice to the last, from the First Continental Congress to today's Congress, all have acknowledged the Christian basis for this country.

 

I'm afraid you equate "A Nation With Many Christian Citizens" as being a "Christian Nation".

 

And that is a false premise from which you argue from.

 

Oh,wow...

I hate repeating myself,but how sad.

 

Don't repeat falsehoods and misinformation.

 

It never works.

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One thing you need to consider is that for the people living at the founding of America the issue of religious freedom was mostly about which Christian religion should receive preference. People on the wrong side of the Catholic/Protestant divide couldn't vote, participate in government or exercise many other basic rights in several European countries of the time. As I mentioned either here or in another thread - several of the original thirteen colonies had state religions - which means one possible interpretation of the First Amendment was simply not to step on state's rights.

 

That said, the history of religious freedom in the US has not been pretty - and abuses have been committed by alleged Christians. In fact, Catholic children were so persecuted by protestants that Catholics were led to set up their own private schools. Still, some people seem to be of the opinion that two wrongs make a right in that past abuses justify current abuses?

 

Anyway how this applies to the pledge.

 

Over the years the SC has fashioned a couple of different tests they use to determine if a law violates the "establishment clause" - the argument in favor of the pledge is that the term God is generic enough that it can represent several religions - and no federal benefit is contingent on participating in any religion.

 

What the SC will ulitmately decide is anyone's guess - and the fact that the law is not clear and that even SC justices (supposedly the best legal minds available) don't agree on almost any ruling should be sufficient evidence that Constitutional law is not so clear cut as people would like to think.

 

 

p.s. don't forget it was the Quakers that first allowed girls to receive the same eduction as boys.

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The very fact that "Under God" is considered a generic term to represent many RELIGIONS is half the problem, since an oath of loyalty to one's nation IMO should not include any blending of religion in it whatsoever.

 

Allowing a religious reference to feature in the pledge clearly discriminates against non-religious people who do not wish to pledge loyalty to a god of whatever religion, even though they may wish to pledge loyalty to their national flag.

 

The second part of the problem is the use of the pledge in public schools. Which IMO brings religious elements into a public institution.

 

If the Supreme Court did their jobs properly, then the pledge would be altered to remove the religious element, but sadly they won't because their own religious beliefs and positions will taint their decision which is unfair and downright incorrect.

Edited by HRH The KING

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It was a decision driven by Cold War politicking, nothing more.

 

They wanted to appear as the "god-fearing" nation as opposed to the evil enemy.

 

The "atheist" Soviet Union.

 

So the words "Under God" were added.

Edited by HRH The KING

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I know that. THat doesn't change anything.

 

I never got how religious beliefs had anything to do with what political system was correct.

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