The Greatest American

[Data 0]

The top (final) five candidates for Greatest American are (in alphabetical order by last name):

Benjamin Franklin

Martin Luther King, Jr.

Abraham Lincoln

Ronald Reagan

George Washington

 

George W. Bush came in 6th and Bill Clinton 7th. 

 

"Celebrity" commentators were Dennis Miller, Randy Jackson and Ann Coulter!

Coulter lectured the Martin Luther King Jr. spokesman for not immediately  emphasizing his being a Christian.  I could only stand to watch about 10 minutes of it.

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I pretty much agree with the selection of the top 5. Don't be surprised if Ben Franklin wins. I still say he should.

[M_5 0]

Okay....in no particular order my top-5:

 

1.Crazy Horse....for defying an overwhelming power in the defense of his people and his homeland.

 

2.Martin Luther King....for braving the insanity of his day and age to preach a message of tolerance,brotherhood,and hope (a message that still needs to be SCREAMED today).

 

3.Ronald W. Reagan....for kicking communism's a** and restoring a measure of pride and strength to the United States in the aftermath of Vietnam and Jimmy Carter.

 

4.Chuck Barry and Jerry Lee Lewis.... for being the TRUE Kings of Rock & Roll

 

5.Debra Winger....for being there for me on film when puberty struck in the early 80's...

[Data 0]

Just reminding people to vote.

[gul_nodrog 2]

Robert E. Lee was pardoned by President Gerald Ford and I believe his citizenship was restored to him posthumously. I know I read that somewhere.

 

His judgment in choosing to fight against the U.S. to which he'd sworn an oath to defend was certainly questionable .... but those were very different times. I think it would be hard for us to conceive of how the U.S. was prior to the Civil War. States regarded themselves as little countries, not really part of an organized "whole."

 

But because he was pardoned, would that not allow us to include him on the list, treason or no?

[M_5 0]

I ended up voting for MLK.

[trekz 7]

Robert E. Lee was pardoned by President Gerald Ford and I believe his citizenship was restored to him posthumously.  I know I read that somewhere.

 

His judgment in choosing to fight against the U.S. to which he'd sworn an oath to defend was certainly questionable .... but those were very different times.  I think it would be hard for us to conceive of how the U.S. was prior to the Civil War.  States regarded themselves as little countries, not really part of an organized "whole." 

 

But because he was pardoned, would that not allow us to include him on the list, treason or no?

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A very good question. Which of course begets others.

 

How does Lee's treason compare to Ali refusing to serve in the military as a factor for inclusion or exclusion as a greatest American?

If you include Lee, do you also include Grant? But does Grant's poor record and scandals during his Presidency negate his accomplishments as a General?

Should Eisenhower be on the list as a General or as a President or for both accomplishments? (I think his instituting the interstate highway system was a major accomplishment)

[VaBeachGuy 12]

But because he was pardoned, would that not allow us to include him on the list, treason or no?

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To me personally treason is treason, pardoned or not. His actions in taking up arms against this nation should disqualify him for any such honor.

 

How does Lee's treason compare to Ali refusing to serve in the military as a factor for inclusion or exclusion as a greatest American?

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I wouldn't equate the two together at all, in one case you have a military officer that has sworn an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic and in the other case you have a private citizen that is refusing to take that oath because of religious reasons.

 

In the case of Lee his crime is punishable by death, in Ali's case it is punishable by prison. Lee betrayed our nation by taking up arms against it and seeking to destroy it's very foundations. Ali just didn't want to go to war and be put in a situation where he may be forced to kill someone.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't include Ali on my list of 100. His draft dodging is enough for me to keep him off that list but I wouldn't compare him to Lee.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

VBG, here's the irony I see in your condemnation of Lee, all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence (many on the original list of 100) were "traitors" from the British perspective - but their war succeeded. Lee really did what these men did as far as the "act" he committed - he just chose the side that lost.

 

However, since his service was to a country other than the US - I can see why he would not be included on the list of Great Americans. Which again raises the question "What is a Great American" because there are a lot of people on that list that I don't consider great people.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

VBG, here's the irony I see in your condemnation of Lee, all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence (many on the original list of 100) were "traitors" from the British perspective - but their war succeeded.  Lee really did what these men did as far as the "act" he committed -  he just chose the side that lost. 

 

However, since his service was to a country other than the US - I can see why he would not be included on the list of Great Americans.  Which again raises the question "What is a Great American" because there are a lot of people on that list that I don't consider great people.

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The difference between Lee and the founding fathers is that they were traitors to England and I wouldn't expect to see Washington or Jefferson to show up on the "100 Greatest Englishmen" list. Lee was a traitor to the United States and took up arms against the nation that I myself took an oath to protect and defend. He doesn't belong on this list any more then Washington would belong on the English list. (In my opinion).

[Theunicornhunter 2]

In 1984 President Reagon declared William Penn an honorary citizen. Technically he wasn't an American but IMO, he made a greater contribution to America than some people on the list. Many of his principles of government became the basis of American constitutional law.

[mj 7]

Seeing this discussion reminded me that I had forgotten to vote. My mother and I just now voted.

 

 

But because he was pardoned, would that not allow us to include him on the list, treason or no?

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To me personally treason is treason, pardoned or not. His actions in taking up arms against this nation should disqualify him for any such honor.

 

How does Lee's treason compare to Ali refusing to serve in the military as a factor for inclusion or exclusion as a greatest American?

334197[/snapback]

I wouldn't equate the two together at all, in one case you have a military officer that has sworn an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic and in the other case you have a private citizen that is refusing to take that oath because of religious reasons.

 

In the case of Lee his crime is punishable by death, in Ali's case it is punishable by prison. Lee betrayed our nation by taking up arms against it and seeking to destroy it's very foundations. Ali just didn't want to go to war and be put in a situation where he may be forced to kill someone.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't include Ali on my list of 100. His draft dodging is enough for me to keep him off that list but I wouldn't compare him to Lee.

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The difference between Lee and the founding fathers is that they were traitors to England and I wouldn't expect to see Washington or Jefferson to show up on the "100 Greatest Englishmen" list. Lee was a traitor to the United States and took up arms against the nation that I myself took an oath to protect and defend. He doesn't belong on this list any more then Washington would belong on the English list. (In my opinion).

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I agree. I think this is clearly true.

[Spike The Trill 0]

Seeing this discussion reminded me that I had forgotten to vote. My mother and I just now voted.

 

 

But because he was pardoned, would that not allow us to include him on the list, treason or no?

334039[/snapback]

 

To me personally treason is treason, pardoned or not. His actions in taking up arms against this nation should disqualify him for any such honor.

 

How does Lee's treason compare to Ali refusing to serve in the military as a factor for inclusion or exclusion as a greatest American?

334197[/snapback]

I wouldn't equate the two together at all, in one case you have a military officer that has sworn an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic and in the other case you have a private citizen that is refusing to take that oath because of religious reasons.

 

In the case of Lee his crime is punishable by death, in Ali's case it is punishable by prison. Lee betrayed our nation by taking up arms against it and seeking to destroy it's very foundations. Ali just didn't want to go to war and be put in a situation where he may be forced to kill someone.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't include Ali on my list of 100. His draft dodging is enough for me to keep him off that list but I wouldn't compare him to Lee.

334212[/snapback]

 

The difference between Lee and the founding fathers is that they were traitors to England and I wouldn't expect to see Washington or Jefferson to show up on the "100 Greatest Englishmen" list. Lee was a traitor to the United States and took up arms against the nation that I myself took an oath to protect and defend. He doesn't belong on this list any more then Washington would belong on the English list. (In my opinion).

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I agree. I think this is clearly true.

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But, from that point of view, wouldn't everyone who fought for the South be considered traitors?

[Theunicornhunter 2]

TheUnicornHunter Posted Today, 07:33 AM

VBG, here's the irony I see in your condemnation of Lee, all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence (many on the original list of 100) were "traitors" from the British perspective - but their war succeeded. Lee really did what these men did as far as the "act" he committed - he just chose the side that lost.

 

However, since his service was to a country other than the US - I can see why he would not be included on the list of Great Americans. Which again raises the question "What is a Great American" because there are a lot of people on that list that I don't consider great people.

 

I think I made it clear in that post that I understood why someone would not put Lee on the list - even though people have continued to comment on it.

 

To answer Spike's question. The South was punished - it took years to rebuild economically - if it ever actually caught up. I wonder if the nation would have healed faster if Lincoln had remained at the helm? We'll never know. Truth is some people still carry prejudice towards the South - it's one of the few acceptable prejudices in this country.

 

The truth is - a lot of people can be a hero to some and a traitor to others. I guess a good question would be - "do you have to have a certain perspective in order to be an American?"

[VaBeachGuy 12]

But, from that point of view, wouldn't everyone who fought for the South be considered traitors?

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Yes, and I say that from the prospective of someone that had many ancestors that fought for the Confederacy and from the prospective of someone that has never lived a single day north of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Data 0]

But, from that point of view, wouldn't everyone who fought for the South be considered traitors?

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Yes, and I say that from the prospective of someone that had many ancestors that fought for the Confederacy and from the prospective of someone that has never lived a single day north of the Mason-Dixon line.

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I only live 100 miles north of the Mason-Dixon line. I still consider myself a Yankee. The weird thing is that DC is below the Mason-Dixon line.

 

I hope others are voting for Ben Franklin. I feel he deserves winning as much as the other 4. Maybe more because he was multi-talented.

Edited June 26, 2005 by Data

[VaBeachGuy 12]

The weird thing is that DC is below the Mason-Dixon line.

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Yeah, I grew up 5 miles north-east of the White House in Maryland.

[Data 0]

Hey, I worked at the Postal Service Research and Development Center in Rockville, MD. That was about 30 years ago.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

Hey, I worked at the Postal Service Research and Development Center in Rockville, MD. That was about 30 years ago.

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One of my brothers works in Rockville.

[trekz 7]

I hope others are voting for Ben Franklin. I feel he deserves winning as much as the other 4. Maybe more because he was multi-talented.

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During the brief time I watched the last 100 Greatest Americans, the most impressive job of pushing any of the five candidates was done by the representative for Franklin. She was persuasive yet funny. Her remark that Franklin was so clearly superior that the other representatives "should go fly a kite!" was a classic!

 

I still favor Lincoln and Washington as my number 1 and 2 choices but Franklin is a close third, imo.

Edited June 26, 2005 by trekz

[Data 0]

Ronald Reagan won. I imagine he won because more remember him than the other four. Any comments?

[Madame Butterfly 0]

Well Reagan really restored alot to this country after the weak Presidents preceding him.

 

I didn't vote for Ronny.

 

I voted for Franklin.

[Data 0]

Well Reagan really restored alot to this country after the weak Presidents preceding him.

 

I didn't vote for Ronny. 

 

I voted for Franklin.

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I voted for Franlin too.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

Ronald Reagan won. I imagine he won because more remember him than the other four. Any comments?

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I feel like my football team just won a football game lol

 

Any of the finalists would have been appropriate though.

[M_5 0]

That's cool.Raegan was my second pick.

I voted for MLK.

My father,whose best friend was african-american,actually traveled to Mississippi with his buddy to participate in a civil rights march.I guess,more than anything he wanted to make sure his friend didn't get hurt.That and his own strong feelings about civil rights.

Both Reagan and MLK were great Americans,willing to risk everything to make America a better place in which to live.

[trekz 7]

I think that Reagan won because more people personally remember him.

When I remember Ronald Reagan I remember the Iran Contra Scandal, the HUGE federal deficit he ran up, his cuts to mental health programs, press coverage of him that was basically photo ops, etc. While he deserves credit for standing firm on communism, he didn't do it single handedly. Gorbachov deserves a great deal of credit for not making it more difficult and contentious, imo.

 

But I have to remember in the words of William Shatner - It's just a tv show!

 

I would like to see a scholarly look at the greatest Americans - I think the Discovery channel owes us that after the questionable people who made the original list imo. I also feel that in 50, 100 or 200 years that Reagan may not be ranked as number 1. But that is just my opinion.

Edited June 27, 2005 by trekz

[VaBeachGuy 12]

I think that Reagan won because more people personally remember him.

When I remember Ronald Reagan I remember the Iran Contra Scandal, the HUGE federal deficit he ran up, his cuts to mental health programs, press coverage of him that was basically photo ops, etc.  While he deserves credit for standing firm on communism, he didn't do it single handedly.  Gorbachov deserves a great deal of credit for not making it more difficult and contentious, imo.

 

But I have to remember in the words of William Shatner - It's just a tv show!

 

I would like to see a scholarly look at the greatest Americans - I think the Discovery channel owes us that after the questionable people who made the original list imo.  I also feel that in 50, 100 or 200 years that Reagan may not be ranked as number 1.  But that is just my opinion.

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Deficits he ran up? I thought it was Congress that controlled the money, not the President.

[trekz 7]

Reagan was in charge for 8 years, but yes Congress does pass budget bills. But Reagan was using the Presidency as a bully pulpit to push oppostition to Communism which meant sky high military expenditures which resulted in the highest budget deficit ever at that time. No one was going to be soft on Communism so of course the budget bills were approved.

[M_5 0]

I just noticed (I've been checking out the Greatest American poll at aol.com) that very few writers,artists,or musicians were in the top 100,but a lot of pop culture icons like Madonna (if there was a vomiting emoticon,it would go here)* represented.....it looked like half of the names listed.What's up with that?

I would've thought F. Scott Fitzgerald or Steinbeck would've been shoe-ins.Same with Robert Johnson (blue's legend) and Andy Worhol.

But,of course,Californians sent in the overwhelming majority of votes....so I guess we're like lucky dude that those singing raisins didn't win.

[HRH The KING 0]

I just can't believe Hulk Hogan didn't win it.

[trekz 7]

I made a comment on the Discovery Channel website concerning my general views of the program and I urge others to make comments if you have any to make.

 

But I have to keep repeating....It's just a tv show.