The Greatest American

[Theunicornhunter 2]

A few weeks ago the Discovery Channel was accepting nominations for "The Greatest American" - now they have a list of 100 nominees and will be accepting votes Sunday night when they present the program.

 

On one hand - two of the people I nominated made the list (I cant remember the third person but if it was who I think it was he made the list as well - you could only nominate three)

 

On the other hand - I was a little amazed, perhaps distressed, by what some people consider "great Americans" - if your major accomplishment is being "married to a US president" does that make you great? It seems the list was dominated by entertainers, athletes, politicians and some business people. A few social reformers and scientists made the list but I guess people define "greatness" in different ways.

 

And I know some of you will disagree with some of the political nominees.

 

And Gene Roddenberry and Isaac Asimov didn't make the list - not that I would necessarily vote for them but IMO their contribution to American Society was at least as great as Martha Stewarts :P .

 

Still I think it is interesting to think about what we consider "great" and who we consider great Americans.

discovery channel

[HRH The KING 0]

Ellen DeGeneres, Lucille Ball, Tom Cruise, Barbara Bush, John Edwards, Rush Limbaugh, Madonna, Dr. Phil, Michael Moore, Audie Murphy, Barack Obama, Arnie, Pat Tilman, Martha Stewart and Oprah Winfrey should not be included in the "Greatest Americans" list.

Edited May 30, 2005 by The King

[Data 0]

Chuck Yeagar and Orville and Wilbur Wright made it. A worthy read is Yeagar's autobiography. It is a really cool book.

Edited May 30, 2005 by Data

[Data 0]

Nixon made the list too. :P

[Spike The Trill 0]

I'd pick Neil Armstrong. He's always been a sort of hero to me.

[Jim Phaserman 0]

Ellen DeGeneres, Lucille Ball, Tom Cruise, Barbara Bush, John Edwards, Rush Limbaugh, Madonna, Dr. Phil, Michael Moore, Audie Murphy, Barack Obama, Arnie, Pat Tilman, Martha Stewart and Oprah Winfrey should not be included in the "Greatest Americans" list.

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I'll agree with you on all but one: Audie Murphy. Yes, he was an actor in a movie. But, the charactor he portrayed in To Hell and Back was none other than himself, and that movie is pretty damned close to being realistic. Anyone who distinguishes himself that much in service to the United States (winning EVERY medal for courage and galantry the Army has to offer) definately does belong on the list. Pat Tillman, maybe, because of what he gave up to become a soldier, but if I had to choose one to put on the list, Audie Murphy would be it. and I will say that Micheal Moore should be banned from any list concerning "great Americans" Aside from being used as an example of what they are not.

[Spockstellaiter 0]

Ellen DeGeneres, Lucille Ball, Tom Cruise, Barbara Bush, John Edwards, Rush Limbaugh, Madonna, Dr. Phil, Michael Moore, Audie Murphy, Barack Obama, Arnie, Pat Tilman, Martha Stewart and Oprah Winfrey should not be included in the "Greatest Americans" list.

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I agree with you! What meaningful contribution to society has Tom Cruise made? The only reason he's on that list is because he's good looking, ditto for Madonna, etc.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

Ellen DeGeneres, Lucille Ball, Tom Cruise, Barbara Bush, John Edwards, Rush Limbaugh, Madonna, Dr. Phil, Michael Moore, Audie Murphy, Barack Obama, Arnie, Pat Tilman, Martha Stewart and Oprah Winfrey should not be included in the "Greatest Americans" list.

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I'll agree with you on all but one: Audie Murphy. Yes, he was an actor in a movie. But, the charactor he portrayed in To Hell and Back was none other than himself, and that movie is pretty damned close to being realistic. Anyone who distinguishes himself that much in service to the United States (winning EVERY medal for courage and galantry the Army has to offer) definately does belong on the list. Pat Tillman, maybe, because of what he gave up to become a soldier, but if I had to choose one to put on the list, Audie Murphy would be it. and I will say that Micheal Moore should be banned from any list concerning "great Americans" Aside from being used as an example of what they are not.

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I agree with Jim, Audie Murphy was indeed a great American and I also feel that it is proper for Pat Tillman to be listed. He gave up multi-millions of dollars to serve this nations military, not only that he gave his life in that service. To me personally, anyone that serves or served this nation honorablly deserves to be on that list.

 

As for Audie Murphy, he's always been a hero to me. Here's what I posted about him a couple years ago:

 

http://www.startrekfans.net/index.php?showtopic=3220

[Madame Butterfly 0]

Yes, I agree I was dismayed at the list.

 

I voted for historical figures mostly, those who had moved ahead the country historically, scientifically, and socially.

 

Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Benjamin Franklin

 

Thomas Jefferson

 

Chuck Jaeger

 

And I can't remember the rest. :P

 

 

I don't think celebrities are the greatest Americans. Most live in their little incubated world.

Edited May 31, 2005 by Madame Butterfly

[deadmeatsecurityguy 0]

Why shouldn't Michael Moore make the list? You do realize that people who espouse opinions and views not in "vogue" are no less American than choose one. Those opinions and their expression validate the American way of life. The freedom and right to dissent. The right of the minority to be heard. It's all part of the American way

[VaBeachGuy 12]

Why shouldn't Michael Moore make the list?  You do realize that people who espouse opinions and views not in "vogue" are no less American than choose one.  Those opinions and their expression validate the American way of life.  The freedom and right to dissent.  The right of the minority to be heard.  It's all part of the American way

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I wouldn't put Michael Moore on the list because he hasn't done anything that I would consider "Great". His views are his views and he's welcome to them, but having opinions, in vogue or not doesn't doesn't make someone great.

[HRH The KING 0]

Michael Moore shouldn't be in the list because his work has been conclusively proven to be baseless and dependant on lies and fabrications. He's done absolutely nothing of significance.

 

Instead of Michael Moore, I would suggest placing Thomas Paine in the list.

 

He wasn't a natural born American, but his work was vitally important in America's birth as a nation.

[Madame Butterfly 0]

What exactly has Michael Moore done for the country as a whole?

 

Has he united it?

 

Has he changed the fundemental thinking of the country?

 

Has he invented something that has made the world a safer place to live?

 

 

 

No no no.

 

Hollywood doesn't belong in this discussion.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

Michael Moore shouldn't be in the list because his work has been conclusively proven to be baseless and dependant on lies and fabrications. He's done absolutely nothing of significance.

 

Instead of Michael Moore, I would suggest placing Thomas Paine in the list.

 

He wasn't a natural born American, but his work was vitally important in America's birth as a nation.

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I agree about Paine, and I don't think someone should have to be naturally born Americans to be in consideration. They should be citizens, but not all Americans were born in America. In fact I'd say that some of America's greatest "success stories" are those of naturalized Americans.

[HRH The KING 0]

Brett Favre, Mel Gibson, Tom Hanks, and Billy Graham should not be the list either.

[deadmeatsecurityguy 0]

I would argue that Michael Moore has done nothing less than take full advantage of the bully pulpit. Is he a great American, who knows? I'm sure some of the people on the list have done no more than Michael Moore, they took advantage of the bully pulpit. Are they great Anericans, once again who knows, opinions differ. Which is all I mean, opinons differ. Opinions are like rear ends every one has one. Our definitions and criteria for great Americans is most likely vastly different, as are the opinions of the Discovery channel producers as well

Edited May 31, 2005 by deadmeatsecurityguy

[HRH The KING 0]

I don't mind people offering opinions and speaking their minds.

 

But I insist that they must offer informed opinions.

 

If not, then they are insignificant.

[Madame Butterfly 0]

Well Sean, I think the Billy Graham on the list is appropriate.

 

He's given advice/council to every President that I can remember.

 

He's a part of the fabric of America, whether or not you agree with him religiously.

[Spike The Trill 0]

Ellen DeGeneres, Lucille Ball, Tom Cruise, Barbara Bush, John Edwards, Rush Limbaugh, Madonna, Dr. Phil, Michael Moore, Audie Murphy, Barack Obama, Arnie, Pat Tilman, Martha Stewart and Oprah Winfrey should not be included in the "Greatest Americans" list.

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I agree with you! What meaningful contribution to society has Tom Cruise made? The only reason he's on that list is because he's good looking, ditto for Madonna, etc.

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Just goes to show that the only culture America has is Pop culture

[HRH The KING 0]

Just goes to show that the only culture America has is Pop culture

 

That's not true.

 

America has many diverse cultures and a unified culture too.

[Spike The Trill 0]

Michael Moore shouldn't be in the list because his work has been conclusively proven to be baseless and dependant on lies and fabrications. He's done absolutely nothing of significance.

 

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I agree. I've only seen "Bowling for Colonbine" and after i saw it, I did some research, and pretty much everything in the "film", and i use the term loosely, was twisted, or mis-quites to fit his views. IMO, he's not a great American, he's a liar, just like to politicions he claims to be against.

[Spike The Trill 0]

Just goes to show that the only culture America has is Pop culture

 

That's not true.

 

America has many diverse cultures and a unified culture too.

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but those all came form other countries, when the immirgrants came here. i'm talking about something that is American in origin. Too me, the only thing we have given the world, culturally, are movies, TV shows, and some music.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

This kind of thing is pretty hard to get a consensus on. "Greatness" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

To me personally if I had to pick 1 person from all of American history as the "Greatest" American I don't think I could do it. If I was asked who I thought the "Greatest American" in my lifetime was I could give my opinion on that fairly easily and I don't think it would be a surprising pick to a lot of the people here on this board that have read the things I've posted over the past 3 years.

 

But just because I think he is the "Greatest American" of my lifetime doesn't mean it's true to someone else. It's a fairly subjective thing and the things that are important to one person may be totally insignificant to another person.

 

So to some people Michael Moore may be a "Great American", to others they may wish to have his citizenship revoked and have him banished to a small planet that has no atmosphere. It's all a matter of personal perspective.

[trekz 7]

I have been watching reaction to this list for some time and most people have found fault with it. I have a number of people I think should have been included on the top 100. They include:

 

Jurists such as John Jay, Oliver Wendall Holmes, John Marshall, and Thurgood Marshall - who was very influential in the civil rights movement.

 

More American leaders such as James Madison, James Monroe, and legislators such as Daniel Webster and Henry Clay.

 

Authors such as Ernest Hemingway, John Steinbeck, Henry Thoreau, Edgar Allan Poe, and Walt Whitman.

 

Explorers such as Lewis and Clark, and Daniel Boone.

 

Musicians and composers such as Scott Joplin, George Gershwin, Leonard Bernstein, Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Rogers and Hamerstein.

 

Inventors and Scientists such as Robert Fulton, James Watson, Linus Pauling.

 

Artists such as Georgia O'Keefe, John James Audobon and Ansel Adams.

 

Native Americans such as Sitting Bull, Tecumseh and athlete Jim Thorpe.

 

Architect Frank Lloyd Wright, activist Jane Addams, Civil War Captain Joshua Chamberlain, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, lobor leaders John L Lewis and Samuel Gompers, Ernie Pyle and Will Rogers.

 

For me these people have all been great Americans with significant contributions to this country far greater than most of the people on the original list. To me this 100 greatest list as it exists shows a lack of knowledge of American history and total confusion as to what greatest means. Of those on the original list I think the greatest are Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin.

[Jim Phaserman 0]

I would argue that Michael Moore has done nothing less than take full advantage of the bully pulpit.  Is he a great American, who knows?  I'm sure some of the people on the list have done no more than Michael Moore, they took advantage of the bully pulpit.  Are they great Anericans, once again who knows, opinions differ.  Which is all I mean, opinons differ.  Opinions are like rear ends every one has one.  Our definitions and criteria for great Americans is most likely vastly different, as are the opinions of the Discovery channel producers as well

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I might consider letting him on the list if he had actually...I dunnow...DONE something about his views. Anyone can make a movie about their views. Anyone can chase Senators. Anyone can take news reel footage and edit it to their likings. He's done nothing that any 15 year old with a video camera, a microphone, and a VCR can't do. If he wanted to be known for something, he should have jumped at the opportunity to run for President in 2004.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I agree that Audie Murphy's service record alone qualifies him for the list - but as someone else pointed out - Americans don't know much about history and probably wouldn't know about Murphy's record if he hadn't been an actor as well.

 

James Stewart was also a veteran (WWII bomber pilot) and I don't categorically oppose all entertainers any more than all writers, musicians, athletes etc. but I question the "greatness" of anyone who's sole accomplishment is to make money.

 

And, I've said this before, as regretable as the loss of Tillman's life is - the fact that he gave up lots of money to serve his country IMO makes him no more great than the little guy down the street who gave up his job at the gas station to die for his country.

 

Other people I think who "contributed" more to society than many people on the list:

Clara Barton

Philo Farnsworth

Rachel Carson

James Watson & Francis Crick

Steven Hawking

Whitney Young

Elizabeth Blackwell

John McCain

 

I think the emphasis on people living in the latter 20th century is a good indication people weren't thinking historically.

[Spike The Trill 0]

I would argue that Michael Moore has done nothing less than take full advantage of the bully pulpit.  Is he a great American, who knows?  I'm sure some of the people on the list have done no more than Michael Moore, they took advantage of the bully pulpit.  Are they great Anericans, once again who knows, opinions differ.  Which is all I mean, opinons differ.  Opinions are like rear ends every one has one.  Our definitions and criteria for great Americans is most likely vastly different, as are the opinions of the Discovery channel producers as well

327939[/snapback]

 

 

I might consider letting him on the list if he had actually...I dunnow...DONE something about his views. Anyone can make a movie about their views. Anyone can chase Senators. Anyone can take news reel footage and edit it to their likings. He's done nothing that any 15 year old with a video camera, a microphone, and a VCR can't do. If he wanted to be known for something, he should have jumped at the opportunity to run for President in 2004.

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Hmm, I wonder how the election would have turned out?

[Jim Phaserman 0]

I agree that Audie Murphy's service record alone qualifies him for the list - but as someone else pointed out - Americans don't know much about history and probably wouldn't know about Murphy's record if he hadn't been an actor as well. 

 

James Stewart was also a veteran (WWII bomber pilot) and I don't categorically oppose all entertainers any more than all writers, musicians, athletes etc.  but I question the "greatness" of anyone who's sole accomplishment is to make money.

 

And, I've said this before, as regretable as the loss of Tillman's life is - the fact that he gave up lots of money to serve his country IMO makes him no more great than the little guy down the street who gave up his job at the gas station to die for his country.

 

Other people I think who "contributed" more to society than many people on the list:

Clara Barton

Philo Farnsworth

Rachel Carson

James Watson & Francis Crick

Steven Hawking

Whitney Young

Elizabeth Blackwell

John McCain

 

I think the emphasis on people living in the latter 20th century is a good indication people weren't thinking historically.

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Americans are unfortunately rather blind when it comes to looking at History. And, to a certain extent, we are a pop culture kind of country. Who were the people on the Top 100 most Influential People of the year list? Paris Hilton was one of them. D'oh!

 

I would argue that Michael Moore has done nothing less than take full advantage of the bully pulpit.  Is he a great American, who knows?  I'm sure some of the people on the list have done no more than Michael Moore, they took advantage of the bully pulpit.  Are they great Anericans, once again who knows, opinions differ.  Which is all I mean, opinons differ.  Opinions are like rear ends every one has one.  Our definitions and criteria for great Americans is most likely vastly different, as are the opinions of the Discovery channel producers as well

327939[/snapback]

 

 

I might consider letting him on the list if he had actually...I dunnow...DONE something about his views. Anyone can make a movie about their views. Anyone can chase Senators. Anyone can take news reel footage and edit it to their likings. He's done nothing that any 15 year old with a video camera, a microphone, and a VCR can't do. If he wanted to be known for something, he should have jumped at the opportunity to run for President in 2004.

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Hmm, I wonder how the election would have turned out?

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He would have lost in the Iowa Caucuses. He would have placed after Kerry, Edwards, Dean, and even Dan Rather and Elmo!

[Spike The Trill 0]

Americans are unfortunately rather blind when it comes to looking at History. And, to a certain extent, we are a pop culture kind of country. Who were the people on the Top 100 most Influential People of the year list? Paris Hilton was one of them. D'oh!

 

 

 

 

That's what I meant with my earlier post. Modern day America has no culture. More high school students can name Brittany Spears latest husband, but can't name the first president.

[HRH The KING 0]

but those all came form other countries, when the immirgrants came here. i'm talking about something that is American in origin. Too me, the only thing we have given the world, culturally, are movies, TV shows, and some music.

 

It still all blends together to create a uniquely American culture.

 

For example, Irish-Americans have their own culture, but it's significantly different to the culture in Eire itself.

 

Movies, TV shows and music are significant cultural contributions, in addition to literature, the U.S. Constitution which many nations modelled their own governments upon, the economic system which has been used as the definative free-market model....and so forth.

 

It's all part of an American culture.