ENT a prequel?

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

 

SPLIT FROM THE "RATE ENT SEASONS" THREAD

 

 

 

Click For Spoiler

#1. Season 4 ...Thank You Manny Coto

#2. Season 1....I started watching with high expectations and slowly was disappointed.

#3  Season 2....Now is the winter of my discontent

# 4 Season 3....seems to be a pattern here....first a temporal cold war, now a xindi war..both heretofore unheard of in Star Trek history....this was suppose to be a prequel right?

326209[/snapback]

 

Yes but I ain't going to revisit that old argument again; either you believe things things can happen and not be spoken of later or you don't. I happen to believe it's plausible the TCW and the Xindi war weren't mentioned later. How many times were the events of First Contact (as shown in the movie) mentioned on DS9 or VOY? I believe it was 0 times.

Edited May 26, 2005 by Alterego

[headborg 1]

 

Yes but I ain't going to revisit that old argument again; either you believe things things can happen and not be spoken of later or you don't. I happen to believe it's plausible the TCW and the Xindi war weren't mentioned later. How many times were the events of First Contact (as shown in the movie) mentioned on DS9 or VOY? I believe it was 0 times.

326216[/snapback]

Yes but,...didn't First Contact hit the theater after DS9 and Voyager? And it started out in the most contempary(present time) of Star Trek, and most information on the actual events of Mankind's First Contact...had previously been unmentioned in TOS, TNG, or Voy and DS9...so it was fair game and didn't alter Star Trek Canon..just fill in the blanks..and Picard & Company did try to follow the Prime Directive and not "alter" the time-line. Since the whole Enterprise Series was set "in the past" a prequel every facet of the show ran the risk of possibly altering something in the established canon. I was hoping it could fill in many "blanks" like Manny Coto succeeded in doing..i.e. Klingon Ridges ..and what happened to them during TOS and why Worf said 'it was embarrassing and wasn't spoken of. And occassionall show us something new.....but spending whole seasons on a tangent like the xindi and then establishing that they are part of the Federation in the future was just too much...now someone needs to explain their absence during TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy era. It would have been much better to introduce them....then let the Sphere Builders wipe them from History at the end of the Arc.

[Ace 0]

(I swear I'm not disagreeing with or correcting anyone, but if this sub-discussion is going to continue, it's important to note that 7of9 did indeed talk about the events of First Contact in Voyager.)

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

 

Yes but I ain't going to revisit that old argument again; either you believe things things can happen and not be spoken of later or you don't. I happen to believe it's plausible the TCW and the Xindi war weren't mentioned later. How many times were the events of First Contact (as shown in the movie) mentioned on DS9 or VOY? I believe it was 0 times.

326216[/snapback]

Yes but,...didn't First Contact hit the theater after DS9 and Voyager? And it started out in the most contempary(present time) of Star Trek, and most information on the actual events of Mankind's First Contact...had previously been unmentioned in TOS, TNG, or Voy and DS9...so it was fair game and didn't alter Star Trek Canon..just fill in the blanks..and Picard & Company did try to follow the Prime Directive and not "alter" the time-line. Since the whole Enterprise Series was set "in the past" a prequel every facet of the show ran the risk of possibly altering something in the established canon. I was hoping it could fill in many "blanks" like Manny Coto succeeded in doing..i.e. Klingon Ridges ..and what happened to them during TOS and why Worf said 'it was embarrassing and wasn't spoken of. And occassionall show us something new.....but spending whole seasons on a tangent like the xindi and then establishing that they are part of the Federation in the future was just too much...now someone needs to explain their absence during TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy era. It would have been much better to introduce them....then let the Sphere Builders wipe them from History at the end of the Arc.

326296[/snapback]

 

I believe FC hit the theater sometime between the 4th and 7th season of DS9.

 

How does the TCW or the Xindi war alter established canon? You yourself said "it ran the risk of possibly altering something in the established canon". Did it or not?

I don't understand your frame of mind, to you the simple fact they were never mentioned in TOS through to NEM constitutes a violation, imo it does not.

 

I too looked forward to the entire series being more like what Coto did with it at the end but I did not get bent out of shape when that didn't happen from the start, it's not being what I thought it would did not corrupt my enjoyment of it. I am used to adapting to changes in the way Trek is produced which have occurred to Trek down through the years starting with TMP.

 

I can explain their (TCW and Xindi) absence; there were no incidents regarding them worthy of mention between ENT and NEM. Stories about those incidents may now be told in the post NEM era just as ENT said they would occur: in the future. Someday those events will meet their destiny born from ENT; it's only going to take time and patience for the timeline to catch up to them. See what I mean?

 

(I swear I'm not disagreeing with or correcting anyone, but if this sub-discussion is going to continue, it's important to note that 7of9 did indeed talk about the events of First Contact in Voyager.)

326377[/snapback]

 

Ok good I'm glad she did, that is exactly what I'm talking about; her comment gives validation to the events of FC and someday in the future someone else's comments or even better, events, will validate the TWC and the Xindi conflict in the same way.

[headborg 1]

(I swear I'm not disagreeing with or correcting anyone, but if this sub-discussion is going to continue, it's important to note that 7of9 did indeed talk about the events of First Contact in Voyager.)

326377[/snapback]

 

I don't have all of Voy on DVD, and the amount of time to blow the dust off the aging stack of VHS and play through is too much work. So please: which ep and what time frame. Can you provide a transcript?

[headborg 1]

LOL!!!!Ok, this resembles the Hamilton Vs Jefferson Debates over Loose vs Strict Interpretation of the Constitution.

 

(1) TCW, doesn't violate canon in itself( other things throughout season 1,2,3,4, did but by 4th season..hey, it was a done deal. TPTB wrapped up the TCW with no net change in the time line(canon) It was like taking a glass of water adding the ice cube, marking the level, then waiting for the cube to melt......no net change.

 

(2)Xindi, is a different matter. If they had been eliminated at the end of the arc...it wouldn't have been a violation of canon...but, having them be the "black sheep" of the Federation Family all these centures and later re-appearing to make B&B another million dollars at sometime in Federation future...is IMO a violation of canon..because their absence can't be just explained later!

 

(1) no species can attack another planet...kill millions of it's citizens..then say..Oh, sorry..we were misguided...we'll just walk away now..and never do it again..in years to come We can be Friends. Especially when they are a more technologically advanced species....There would have been REPARATIONS TO PAY, and star fleet would have been keeping a keen eye on them throughout the April,Pike,Kirk,Hariman, etc eras.

 

The Expanse was eliminated returning space to normal( i.e. cancelling it out..so there's no net effect there(canon fixed) The Sphere Builder's arent a problem to Canon either (they went back to their own dimension and can come back to threaten the Federation later..no problem there) It's just those darn Xindi..where were they hiding all those years...it's a canon problem(especially since they got admitted into the Federation(at some point)...and not just skulking about the alpha/bata quads.

[Ace 0]

(I swear I'm not disagreeing with or correcting anyone, but if this sub-discussion is going to continue, it's important to note that 7of9 did indeed talk about the events of First Contact in Voyager.)

326377[/snapback]

 

I don't have all of Voy on DVD, and the amount of time to blow the dust off the aging stack of VHS and play through is too much work. So please: which ep and what time frame. Can you provide a transcript?

326467[/snapback]

 

Hehe, same situation here.

I just recall that from memory. Seven was having a discussion with Harry and B'elana. I believe it was the ep that had the Kim/Torres quizzing each other about historical information, and Seven brought up how the Borg were present at first contact, etc. If I remember the ep name, I'll let you know.

[Takara_Soong 4]

Did I miss something? When was it said that the Xindi joined the Federation?

 

I don't see what the problem is with some species not being mentioned in TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY. Just because they aren't talked about doesn't mean anything. For instance, personally I've maybe had one or two conversations mentioning the Seychelles that I can think of. My not talking about them doesn't mean the islands don't exist. And before anyone says "but the Xindi attack was a major event". Sure it was but there are a lot of major events from 200 years ago that I don't discuss on a daily basis either.

[Kor37 9]

The Eugenics Wars were huge too but I never heard mention of them in any series other than TOS (and Enterprise of course).

[deagletime 1]

(I swear I'm not disagreeing with or correcting anyone, but if this sub-discussion is going to continue, it's important to note that 7of9 did indeed talk about the events of First Contact in Voyager.)

326377[/snapback]

 

"While Kim and Torres are playing their trivia game to pass the time, Kim asks Torres about the first warp ship, and Seven of Nine enters with the answer, stating that "the Borg were present for those events". This is a reference to the movie Star Trek: First Contact." - Star Trek: Voyager - Year Of Hell

 

"There is a reference to "Star Trek: First Contact" when Seven of Nine is asked for an example of the Pogo Paradox, She describes the time the Borg went back to Earths past to stop First Contact, which led the Starship Enterprise to follow them back " - Star Trek: Voyager - Relativity

 

courtesy of google and tvtome.com

[Spike The Trill 0]

Did I miss something? When was it said that the Xindi joined the Federation?

 

326538[/snapback]

Daniels told Archer while they were onboard the Enterprise-J.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Did I miss something? When was it said that the Xindi joined the Federation?

 

326538[/snapback]

Daniels told Archer while they were onboard the Enterprise-J.

326939[/snapback]

 

Yeah & what wasn't said was WHEN they joined, for all we know it could have been a week or month or year prior to Archers visit to the future. To think they joined sometime near-after the events of the Xindi conflict is fan assumption.

 

Come to think of it I believe I do remember hearing Daniels say something to Archer about their (Xindi) joining (or about to join) being a current event of the time of Ent J.

[headborg 1]

Did I miss something? When was it said that the Xindi joined the Federation?

 

326538[/snapback]

Daniels told Archer while they were onboard the Enterprise-J.

326939[/snapback]

 

Yeah & what wasn't said was WHEN they joined, for all we know it could have been a week or month or year prior to Archers visit to the future. To think they joined sometime near-after the events of the Xindi conflict is fan assumption.

 

Come to think of it I believe I do remember hearing Daniels say something to Archer about their (Xindi) joining (or about to join) being a current event of the time of Ent J.

326960[/snapback]

 

I hope you are not refering to me assuming the Xindi could ever join the Federation anytime near-after the events of the conflict! When they joined is irrelevant, their unnoticed presence in the Alpha/Bata quad without being referenced or notice in the TOS-TNG-DS9 era is a canon problem.

 

I understand that small issues can go unnoticed without causing a continuity problem, but Xindi with the technology to build DeathStar type weapons capable of destroying entire planets and (transwarp conduits) during all those era.. is highly unplausable to go unnoticed. It's like the old question: If a tree falls in a forest and no-one's around to hear it-did it make a sound? But the Xindi being in the forest(alpha quad), is like saying: if a meteorite 1/2 mile in diameter strikes the forest and no one's there to hear it.........

 

It's the Magnitude that matters.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Yeah & what wasn't said was WHEN they joined, for all we know it could have been a week or month or year prior to Archers visit to the future. To think they joined sometime near-after the events of the Xindi conflict is fan assumption.

 

Come to think of it I believe I do remember hearing Daniels say something to Archer about their (Xindi) joining (or about to join) being a current event of the time of Ent J.

326960[/snapback]

 

I hope you are not refering to me assuming the Xindi could ever join the Federation anytime near-after the events of the conflict! When they joined is irrelevant, their unnoticed presence in the Alpha/Bata quad without being referenced or notice in the TOS-TNG-DS9 era is a canon problem.

 

No, I was reffering to everyone who ever made the assumption.

 

I understand that small issues can go unnoticed without causing a continuity problem, but Xindi with the technology to build DeathStar type weapons capable of destroying entire planets and (transwarp conduits) during all those era.. is highly unplausable to go unnoticed.  It's like the old question: If a tree falls in a forest and no-one's around to hear it-did it make a sound?  But the Xindi being in the forest(alpha quad), is like saying:  if a meteorite 1/2 mile in diameter strikes the forest and no one's there to hear it.........

 

It's the Magnitude that matters.

327244[/snapback]

 

These are your opinions and that's fine with me. Mines different, what you see as a mountain I see as a mole hill. I'm though, nice chatting with you.

Edited May 28, 2005 by Alterego

[Takara_Soong 4]

I hope you are not refering to me assuming the Xindi could ever join the Federation anytime near-after the events of the conflict! When they joined is irrelevant, their unnoticed presence in the Alpha/Bata quad without being referenced or notice in the TOS-TNG-DS9 era is a canon problem.

327244[/snapback]

 

Betazoids were never mentioned in TOS. Neither were Bajorans, Cardassians or Trill. Deltans, Orions and Platonians weren't in TNG and there was only a brief glimpse of Andorians (The Offspring). The Dominion and the Founders were never mentioned in TNG series. The only mention of the Dominion regarding TNG was in ST: INS.

 

At the time of TNG, the UFP consisted of 150 member planets spread over 8,000 light years (ST: FC), most of the planets haven't been identified in canon. In Time's Arrow Part II, Deanna Troi told Samuel Clemons that the Bolian he had just seen was one of thousands of species they had encountered. The Federation President in ST: VI was a species that has never been identified and that species hasn't been seen in any other movie or series.

 

So what's the big deal that the Xindi weren't mentioned in TOS/TNG/DS9. It's a big galaxy. They can't show or mention every species out there.

[headborg 1]

I hope you are not refering to me assuming the Xindi could ever join the Federation anytime near-after the events of the conflict! When they joined is irrelevant, their unnoticed presence in the Alpha/Bata quad without being referenced or notice in the TOS-TNG-DS9 era is a canon problem.

327244[/snapback]

 

Betazoids were never mentioned in TOS. Neither were Bajorans, Cardassians or Trill. Deltans, Orions and Platonians weren't in TNG and there was only a brief glimpse of Andorians (The Offspring). The Dominion and the Founders were never mentioned in TNG series. The only mention of the Dominion regarding TNG was in ST: INS.

 

At the time of TNG, the UFP consisted of 150 member planets spread over 8,000 light years (ST: FC), most of the planets haven't been identified in canon. In Time's Arrow Part II, Deanna Troi told Samuel Clemons that the Bolian he had just seen was one of thousands of species they had encountered. The Federation President in ST: VI was a species that has never been identified and that species hasn't been seen in any other movie or series.

 

So what's the big deal that the Xindi weren't mentioned in TOS/TNG/DS9. It's a big galaxy. They can't show or mention every species out there.

327594[/snapback]

 

Again it's a matter of the magnitude and the impact the species has on the storyline and the geographic proximity that makes a difference. (1) the Batazoids are a minor species(mole hill), (2) Bejorans, Cardassians, The Dominion and Founders...too far away to be a issue during the early era of Federation Exploration. (3) other's are all minor players too. The Xindi are a loose-end that needed tieing up, but because the series has ended..unless the next show does something about it..I'll be left wondering what happened to them during the next 100 years between 2154 and 2164, did they destroy themselves in a Civil War-with only a handful remaining, did they suffer a long period of cultural isolation and a technological "Dark Age"? All pack-up and immigrate to another sector..Gamma, or Delta ..hince their long absence.

[Takara_Soong 4]

Again it's a matter of the magnitude and the impact the species has on the storyline and the geographic proximity that makes a difference. (1) the Batazoids are a minor species(mole hill), (2) Bejorans, Cardassians, The Dominion and Founders...too far away to be a issue during the early era of Federation Exploration. (3) other's are all minor players too.  The Xindi are a loose-end that needed tieing up, but because the series has ended..unless the next show does something about it..I'll be left wondering what happened to them during the next 100 years between 2154 and 2164, did they destroy themselves in a Civil War-with only a handful remaining, did they suffer a long period of cultural isolation and a technological "Dark Age"? All pack-up and immigrate to another sector..Gamma, or Delta ..hince their long absence.

327741[/snapback]

 

Wanting to have loose ends tied up is fine but how is that a canon problem?

 

How many times did TNG/DS9/VOY reference the Eugenics War - once (DS9's "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?")?* How many times was World War III referenced in TNG/DS9/VOY - once in TNG and once in ST:FC?* Those were major events in Trek history yet they were barely mentioned. In TNG/DS9/VOY how many times were the Enterprise-B or Enterprise-C mentioned - once for each (ST: Generations and Yesterday's Enterprise respectively).*

 

*I'm using the ST Encyclopedia for assistance in when these events were referenced.

[headborg 1]

Again it's a matter of the magnitude and the impact the species has on the storyline and the geographic proximity that makes a difference. (1) the Batazoids are a minor species(mole hill), (2) Bejorans, Cardassians, The Dominion and Founders...too far away to be a issue during the early era of Federation Exploration. (3) other's are all minor players too.  The Xindi are a loose-end that needed tieing up, but because the series has ended..unless the next show does something about it..I'll be left wondering what happened to them during the next 100 years between 2154 and 2164, did they destroy themselves in a Civil War-with only a handful remaining, did they suffer a long period of cultural isolation and a technological "Dark Age"? All pack-up and immigrate to another sector..Gamma, or Delta ..hince their long absence.

327741[/snapback]

 

Wanting to have loose ends tied up is fine but how is that a canon problem?

 

How many times did TNG/DS9/VOY reference the Eugenics War - once (DS9's "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?")?* How many times was World War III referenced in TNG/DS9/VOY - once in TNG and once in ST:FC?* Those were major events in Trek history yet they were barely mentioned. In TNG/DS9/VOY how many times were the Enterprise-B or Enterprise-C mentioned - once for each (ST: Generations and Yesterday's Enterprise respectively).*

 

*I'm using the ST Encyclopedia for assistance in when these events were referenced.

327777[/snapback]

 

You still seem to be neglecting the primary source of TREK CANON in your examples.....TOS<<<this is the bed-rock foundation of all things TREK...Eugenics War did not need to be referenced in TNG/DS9/Voy because it was conceived in TOS and those shows were set After TOS. Thankfully, Enterprise acknowledged it..which it had to because Enterprise is a prequel to TOS.

Same applies to your second example...WWIII...Colonel Green gets mentioned in Enterprise.

Having a prequel introduce such a major re-write( addition) to Trek history such as the Xindi and then jumping ahead and placing them in the Federation at some part of Trek Future Is like, if tomorrow the Vatican were to announce that there were really 16 apostles of Christ and here are their Testaments! Imagine if they had set up a Xindi Neutral Zone, too<<<would you still say that could have just been "overlooked" too. There are limits to how far you can go when writing a prequel, most of the time the RESET BUTTON is pushed at the end of the story arc..with the Xindi it wasn't(B&B job security to set up a future series by using a failing show to introduce a new set of charactors & villians(sphere builders) for future use).

It will be interesting to see the Enterprise F,G, H,I, or J with large "fish tanks" for the aquatic crew members..maybe will have whole sections of the ship "underwater" like Engineering! and maybe the human crew will have to wear SCUBA gear to work in those departments...Maybe we'll have great scenes of the ladies in thong bikini as standard StarFleet Uniform! :P

[Takara_Soong 4]

You still seem to be neglecting the primary source of TREK CANON in your examples.....TOS<<<this is the bed-rock foundation of all things TREK...

327818[/snapback]

 

Yes TOS is the bedrock of canon with hundreds of layers on top of if it now but I still don't see a canon problem. What canon has been breached? What is the contradiction with later Trek history? Not being mentioned later does not make it a canon violation. It just means it wasn't mentioned.

 

I have the edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia that was updated in 1999. In the "Historical Events in the Star Trek Universe" section there is nothing listed between the years 2117 (Zefram Cochrane disappears and is believed dead) and 2156 (Romulan Wars begin between Earth forces and the Romulan Star Empire). The Xindi arc takes place between April, 2153 and February, 2154.

 

Since there was no previously established canon for the time period 2153/2154 regarding wars involving Earth, what canon was broken? Loose ends does not mean breached canon.

[Spike The Trill 0]

Let's be thankful for one thing: At least it didn't screw up cannon like Star Wars :P

(BTW, I'm a huge Star Wars fan)