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You know what really annoys me about this cancellation? the fact that anti-Ent people see it as a victory. Like the jerks at UPN?Paramount gave a rats *buttocks* about your whiney insubstantial voices! They didn't even see rallying ratings as an ample reason to keep the show. It wasn't motivated by ratings, buut by head honchos distinct dislike of all things Sci-Fi, note the guy with final say so has canned a lot of sci fi shows, but persued ardently crap like America's Next Top Model. Like that is worth anHOUR of my life for 24-26 weeks!

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You know what really annoys me about this cancellation? the fact that anti-Ent people see it as a victory.

 

Well, it is a victory in the sense that the Pro-Franchise (a better term than anti-ENT) see this cancellation as a sign that Paramount finally realise that ENT was weak creatively and that's why it had low ratings. So rather than trying to save a lost cause, they've cancelled it, and I support that decision. I would think people on our faction regard to cancellation as necessary step to "stop the rot" that is infecting the franchise.

 

Star Trek is Paramounts main property, so it's highly unlikely they would allow Moonves to cancel the show just because he may not like Sci-Fi. It had very poor ratings so that's why it was brought to an end, and a wise decision that was IMO.

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...the Pro-Franchise (a better term than anti-ENT)

300927[/snapback]

 

I disagree. By saying you are pro-franchise you are implying that those of us who support Enterprise are anti-franchise. We are as much pro-franchise as anyone and we feel we are fighting FOR the franchise.

 

Les Moonves has indicated he believes a 5-10 year break is necessary. The phenomenal success of Star Wars: The New Hope was what brought the TOS crew to the big screen. The chances of another movie reviving sci-fi like SW did are pretty slim. A 5-10 year break means never and the sooner the anti-Enterprise people realize that and start fighting to save Enterprise and the franchise, the better.

Edited by Takara_Soong

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moonves hates sci fi. his intentions is to kill sci fi, he has done it successfully else where now he is killing the most iconic series ever, one that actually makes more than it loses.

 

King you are blind if you refuse to take his previous concerted efforts into consideration.

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I disagree. By saying you are pro-franchise you are implying that those of us who support Enterprise are anti-franchise. We are as much pro-franchise as anyone and we feel we are fighting FOR the franchise.

 

Well, the people who dislike ENT tend to be of the belief that it harms the franchise as a whole (it's future in particular) so that's why I call them "Pro-Franchise" and use the term "Pro-ENT" to describe your faction. It's a way of showing that each side is positive in their own beliefs.

 

Les Moonves has indicated he believes a 5-10 year break is necessary.

 

He said that? WONDERFUL!!!!!!! :clap: He's definately got the right idea. Rick Berman himself said that people are suffering from "franchise fatigue" and he's right. Though he neglects to point out that it's under his poor leadership that this has occured.

 

The phenomenal success of Star Wars: The New Hope was what brought the TOS crew to the big screen.

 

Maybe, but I still think a revival would have come along anyway. It just showed Paramount that there was an appetite for sci-fi among the movie going public.

 

The chances of another movie reviving sci-fi like SW did are pretty slim.

 

Star Trek shouldn't need life support from SW or something like it. If Paramount treated it with the respect it deserves, then it wouldn't be in such a tired state right now.

 

A 5-10 year break means never

 

No it doesn't. You're just feeling low because of the ENT cancellation. Trek will recover. It's strong and it has great meaning. You must have more belief in Trek Takara.

 

Think positive!!!!! :pinch:

 

and the sooner the anti-Enterprise people realize that and start fighting to save Enterprise and the franchise, the better.

 

I seriously doubt the pro-Franchise people will support ENT. I certainly will not. I've already clearly stated what I believe is needed now. New ideas, new leadership, strong concepts and premises, a new fresh approach for how Trek is presented, and pressure on Paramount to treat Trek with the reverence it deserves.

 

THAT'S how we'll save the franchise.

Edited by The King

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Being A Fan Of Enterprise, I Hate To Say This, But King Is Right IMO.

 

Those Of Us That Support Enterprise Are In The Minority. True We Are Many, But Not As Many As The Non-Supporters.

 

But Also Keep In Mind, Not Everyone Can Even Watch Enterprise. I Have To Watch It On Direct TV Cause Our Local Cable Doesn't Carry UPN. Because Of This, I Missed The First 2 Seasons, Save For The Premire And A Few At The End Of Season 2.

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No it doesn't. You're just feeling low because of the ENT cancellation. Trek will recover. It's strong and it has great meaning. You must have more belief in Trek Takara.

 

300973[/snapback]

 

I have faith in the franchise. I don't have faith in Viacom or Les Moonves. That is why I am fighting. Even if it's a fight I can't win, at least I'm showing them I care.

 

I think you are deluding yourself if you believe Viacom and Moonves know the difference between your stance and anti-Trek.

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I have faith in the franchise.

 

Excellent. :clap:

 

I don't have faith in Viacom or Les Moonves.

 

Alright. But they know Trek can potentially be big business for them. They'll come back to it eventually. Rest assured, they must. Trek is too valuable a property to allow it to die.

 

That is why I am fighting. Even if it's a fight I can't win, at least I'm showing them I care.

 

I know. I understand that.

 

I doubt your campaign will succeed, but I've never said you shouldn't give it a try.

 

But I can't say "I hope you succeed, I support you, and I hope my faction supports you too", because I don't want your campaign to succeed, I cannot support you, and I don't think the people who are on my side of the Trek spectrum will support you either.

 

I think you are deluding yourself if you believe Viacom and Moonves know the difference between your stance and anti-Trek.

 

No Takara. They know. That's why when they announced that ENT was to be cancelled, they did mention that Trek would be back eventually. That's why no one at Paramount has dared to say "It's the end forever for Trek". The tone coming from Paramount is very much "Ok, this show failed, but let's rest Trek for a while and bring it back when there's a greater demand for Trek".

 

They also MUST know that serious changes need to be made with regards to the staff, because they've allowed Berman to have many chances, with the weak VOY (which admittedly was better than ENT), the poor performance of INS, the disaster of NEM, and the failure of ENT. He's been given enough chances and my side have been calling for changes for a while now. We've also been saying that Trek must be allowed to rest for a while. Finally, they are starting to understand.

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That's why when they announced that ENT was to be cancelled, they did mention that Trek would be back eventually. That's why no one at Paramount has dared to say "It's the end forever for Trek". The tone coming from Paramount is very much "Ok, this show failed, but let's rest Trek for a while and bring it back when there's a greater demand for Trek".

 

There was no need to cancel Enterprise in it's best season..It's so much better now..At least we got 4 years and I'm going to savor these last wonderful episodes..I certainly don't trust Paramount or anyone else to bring Trek back in 5 years or so..I fear that Enterprise's cancelling means the end of any new Star Trek..Forever..All I can say is it's been a hell of a run..5 series and 10 movies..I'm sad and angry that it's over but the only thing I can do is try to save Enterprise and the franchise..And yes I am Pro-Franchise which means Pro-Enterprise IMO..

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I'm more cynical about Viacom. I believe they don't want all of Trekdom coming down on them so they throw out a bone that Trek will be back after a break. There's no guarantee that they will bring it back. That is what you are risking.

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There was no need to cancel Enterprise in it's best season..

 

It could be it's best season creatively IYO, but the fact is that it's getting it's worst ratings.

 

It's so much better now..At least we got 4 years and I'm going to savor these last wonderful episodes..

 

Exactly, you'll still see re-runs and you can buy the DVD's eventually. The fact it's cancelled doesn't mean you can't enjoy what you had.

 

I certainly don't trust Paramount or anyone else to bring Trek back in 5 years or so..I fear that Enterprise's cancelling means the end of any new Star Trek..Forever..All I can say is it's been a hell of a run..5 series and 10 movies..I'm sad and angry that it's over but the only thing I can do is try to save Enterprise and the franchise..

 

Don't be so pessimistic. The pro-ENT people are still upset. Eventually, they'll see things clearly. Paramount realised that there was no point trying to raise a ship that was pretty much sunk. It's better to let it go and come back with a stronger incarnation in a few years.

 

And yes I am Pro-Franchise which means Pro-Enterprise IMO..

 

Alright then. IMO, when the campaign to save that show is over and the Trek fanbase unites to demand higher standards for Trek in the future, THEN your faction will be Pro-Franchise again. At that point I'll find some sort of awesome name for the collective fanbase, because Trekker/Trekkie just doesn't sound cool anymore.

 

:clap:

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That's why when they announced that ENT was to be cancelled, they did mention that Trek would be back eventually. That's why no one at Paramount has dared to say "It's the end forever for Trek". The tone coming from Paramount is very much "Ok, this show failed, but let's rest Trek for a while and bring it back when there's a greater demand for Trek".

 

There was no need to cancel Enterprise in it's best season..It's so much better now..At least we got 4 years and I'm going to savor these last wonderful episodes..I certainly don't trust Paramount or anyone else to bring Trek back in 5 years or so..I fear that Enterprise's cancelling means the end of any new Star Trek..Forever..All I can say is it's been a hell of a run..5 series and 10 movies..I'm sad and angry that it's over but the only thing I can do is try to save Enterprise and the franchise..And yes I am Pro-Franchise which means Pro-Enterprise IMO..

301014[/snapback]

 

I have to agree I consider myself to be Pro-Franchise and to me I believe that means Pro-Enterprise. I agree that with the cancellation of Enterprise it could very likely mean the end of any new Star Trek. Without any new episodes being aired there will be little or no new viewers that will get into the franchise and those that were "on the fence" meaning they watched the show but were not yet avid trek fans will loose interest and will probably never regain it, so therefore I feel that if Paramount does not reconsider it's position then it could very well mean the end of Star Trek ever having any new television or movie content.

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I believe they don't want all of Trekdom coming down on them so they throw out a bone that Trek will be back after a break.

 

There's no guarantee that they will bring it back. That is what you are risking.

 

That won't get them anywhere. A strong Trek means a heck of a lot of revenue for the company in terms of merchandise and so forth. Paramount don't really have anything that matches Star Trek in terms of it's following and profitability over the past few decades. That's why they must strengthen the creative side of Trek. A stronger show, means more viewers, which means more advertising revenue and profits. It's in their best interests to give us what we want. Though that doesn't include ENT because not enough people wanted that.

 

I agree that with the cancellation of Enterprise it could very likely mean the end of any new Star Trek.

 

For a while it will. But not permanently.

 

There are many Trek fans who were desperate to watch new Trek, but they didn't like ENT. The amount of people who actually watched ENT in recent seasons was very low. Now pro-ENT people might say "Oh, the Nielsen ratings are not accurate", but I didn't hear anyone complaining about the Nielsen's when the first episode drew twelve million viewers. That shows that people WERE excited about ENT, but we very disappointed in what they saw. I was one of those people.

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That's why they must strengthen the creative side of Trek.[/b]

301018[/snapback]

Then why cancel a show that is hitting its creative strength? The show has demonstrated a great deal of potential this year. Sure, the first few years weren't perfect but no trek series can claim that thier first few years were (except maybe TOS that had to be perfect to survive). Yes, the ratings are bad but that can not be entirely on the creative side of the show. Promotion was weak and the show was pre-empted many times and when it re-aired on the weekend, it wasn't counted.

And I don't care what you say about if the quality is high enough people would watch. How can Enterprise compete with American Idol (a massive ratings draw) especially when Enterprise can't be seen in numerous markets. Being on UPN put Enterprise at a consistent disadvantage. And to think, NBC wanted the show originally. If only they'd gone in that direction, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation.

Has Enterprise had creative problems? Yes. Can all of its problems be blamed on that? No.

 

Can I ask one favour of you The King? I believe I heard you've said that you haven't seen any of Season 4 yet and you've also said you don't plan to watch it. Please watch. It may not change your mind but it's the biggest reason why we're fighting for the show. I just think you should give it a chance. If you still stick to your position, fine.

 

Actually I have a second favour to ask of you, could you please stop referring to the sides in the debate as factions? I just find it so ridiculous. By using 'factions' you are drawing the kind of line that Startrekfans.net was created to avoid. Could you please just use 'side' from now on.

 

I would also like to add that they while you have annoyed me recently, you have conducted yourself with far more tact than other anti-Ent (Pro-Franchise, as you prefer) posters have on other message boards and occasionally on this board. I do very much disagree with your opinion, but at least you have gone about presenting it with dignity and treated others fairly. I can respect that.

Edited by Jack_Bauer

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Then why cancel a show that is hitting its creative strength? The show has demonstrated a great deal of potential this year.

 

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct, and the show is creatively strong right now, that's wonderful. But what about the wasted three seasons that preceeded this season? Like I've said before, that's nearly half the run of the series if it had gone to seven seasons, and besides, if this is it's strongest season, then why are the ratings so poor?

 

Yes, the ratings are bad but that can not be entirely on the creative side of the show. Promotion was weak and the show was pre-empted many times and when it re-aired on the weekend, it wasn't counted.

 

No, this is something I just mentioned on the other thread. The pro-ENT people claim the promotion was poor, yet, you all seem to have seen the show consistantly week after week. You all have access to the Internet and you all post here, so you are aware when the show is broadcast. Now, I do acknowledge that some people don't have access to UPN, but seriously, if those people were counted, would it really make that much difference to the viewing figures? The creative side was the weak link. The first show attracted 12-15 million viewers, yet this plunged to around two million for recent episodes. This means one thing, that people were excited and curious about the show when it began, but over time, they have simply left the show due to poor quality, since they knew which channel it was on, but they just had no desire to watch the show.

 

And I don't care what you say about if the quality is high enough people would watch.

 

You don't??? :clap:

 

You don't think that if the quality of the show was higher, that more people would have stuck with the show? If it were high in quality, word of mouth would have spread and the audience would have grown.

 

How can Enterprise compete with American Idol (a massive ratings draw) especially when Enterprise can't be seen in numerous markets. Being on UPN put Enterprise at a consistent disadvantage.

 

I agree, and I have been critical of Paramount's actions regarding Trek. This is a problem that goes back to around 1994. There's no way ENT or any other show could compete with a mass appeal show like American Idol.

 

And to think, NBC wanted the show originally. If only they'd gone in that direction, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Has Enterprise had creative problems? Yes. Can all of its problems be blamed on that? No.

 

I still think it would have been cancelled. I say time and time again, it comes down to quality. Regardless of promotion levels, if the standards of creativity are not high enough, the show will go nowhere. The creative problems I would say account for around 99% of the shows failure and the weakness of the franchise.

 

Can I ask one favour of you The King? I believe I heard you've said that you haven't seen any of Season 4 yet and you've also said you don't plan to watch it. Please watch. It may not change your mind but it's the biggest reason why we're fighting for the show. I just think you should give it a chance. If you still stick to your position, fine.

 

We don't get the final season until March on Sky One, and originally I had planned to watch it to give it "another chance". Then, after it was cancelled, that became pointless, but OK, when it starts in March, I will watch the final season.

 

Actually I have a second favour to ask of you, could you please stop referring to the sides in the debate as factions? I just find it so ridiculous. By using 'factions' you are drawing the kind of line that Startrekfans.net was created to avoid. Could you please just use 'side' from now on.

 

The term "faction" is generally accurate because there are two main "groups" in this whole sorry situation. The people who support ENT and those who oppose it. Using the term "side" doesn't really suggest anything different to "faction". Besides, "faction" sounds so much cooler IMO. But since you asked me politely, I will use the term "side" from now on.

 

I would also like to add that they while you have annoyed me recently, you have conducted yourself with far more tact than other anti-Ent (Pro-Franchise, as you prefer) posters have on other message boards and occasionally on this board.

 

Well, I can't do anything about how annoying I am. It's entirely possible that my posts may be disliked by some members on this site, but that's just something we'll have to accept, because not everyone has the same style when they post on a website. But I never try to intentionally flame or aggrevate anyone, and unless I am provoked, I won't be aggressive in my posting.

 

I can't speak for the other Pro-Franchise people, but to be honest, some of them are just a bunch of.......... like a small number of Pro-ENT people can be. We just have to ignore people like that and conduct a reasoned and rational discussion about the future of our franchise.

 

I do very much disagree with your opinion, but at least you have gone about presenting it with dignity and treated others fairly. I can respect that.

 

Thankyou very much. I appreciate that.

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The first show attracted 12-15 million viewers, yet this plunged to around two million for recent episodes.

301138[/snapback]

 

When Broken Bow premiered the entire UPN network aired the episode in its time period. After that, not all UPN affiliates aired Enterprise in its proper time period so viewers of those affiliates are not counted in the weekly ratings.

 

No, this is something I just mentioned on the other thread. The pro-ENT people claim the promotion was poor, yet, you all seem to have seen the show consistantly week after week.

301138[/snapback]

 

With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what type, if any, promotion has been done for the series because you don't have access to UPN. The network has never properly promoted the series. Any promotion it has received is because of fan promotion. And yes, I have access to UPN on my local cable.

 

BTW, if you have read any of Sam's posts in the Enterprise forum you will see that he did not have access for 2 of Enterprise's seasons (I think it was at least 2 wasn't it, Sam?) because of affiliate problems.

 

Regardless of promotion levels, if the standards of creativity are not high enough, the show will go nowhere. The creative problems I would say account for around 99% of the shows failure and the weakness of the franchise.

301138[/snapback]

 

You are constantly talking about bringing in new blood, new writers. Well, surprise - they did. Co-Executive Producer and writer Manny Coto (Storm Front Parts 1 & 2, Bound), Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens (The Forge, Observer Effect, United, Divergence), Ken LaZebnik (Borderland, Daedalus) and Michael Bryant (CS12, Daedalus) are all new to Enterprise this season. The other writers this season are Trek vets Andre Bormanis and Mike Sussman.

 

I'm curious. How many episodes of Enterprise have you watched altogether? What was the last one you watched?

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When Broken Bow premiered the entire UPN network aired the episode in its time period. After that, not all UPN affiliates aired Enterprise in its proper time period so viewers of those affiliates are not counted in the weekly ratings.

 

You honestly think a media conglomerate of the size of Viacom would cancel an incarnation of it's most prized franchise property without researching in detail how successful the show is in terms of ratings? Do you really think they would be so careless? :) :pinch:

 

With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what type, if any, promotion has been done for the series because you don't have access to UPN.

 

That's true, I don't. But the show is broadcast here, it receives ample promotion. It's even been on the sides of buses in Leeds. I always know when it is on. Now, I'm pretty certain you have tv guides in North America. If you are really as great a fan of ENT as you say you are, I'm sure you would have no trouble finding out when the show is on. I can pick up my remote control right now, press a few buttons and find out when a specific show is being broadcast a WEEK from now. Plus, you have the Internet, you can find programming details on there too. The network don't have to call your house and say "Hey, don't forget to watch ENT this week" do they?

 

The network has never properly promoted the series. Any promotion it has received is because of fan promotion. And yes, I have access to UPN on my local cable.

 

That's called "word of mouth" where people say to others "Man, this show is really awesome, you should watch it". You say you can receive UPN?, then you have no trouble then do you? You have the channel, you know when the show is on, and you watch it. The problem is that you are simply one of a relatively small number of people watching the show. You talk about an alleged lack of promotion and people not having access to UPN, yet VOY consistantly had higher ratings that ENT (around eight million, I believe). That was on UPN. Isn't it possible that many people started watching ENT and then decided "This show is rubbish" and tuned out? Couldn't that possibly account for the low viewing figures too?

 

BTW, if you have read any of Sam's posts in the Enterprise forum you will see that he did not have access for 2 of Enterprise's seasons (I think it was at least 2 wasn't it, Sam?) because of affiliate problems.

 

I read Sam's posts indeed. But if the show got 12 million viewers for the first episode which was broadcast across the UPN network, and is now getting 2 million viewers per episode (even though Sam and possibly others now have access to UPN) then that doesn't make sense. If he could get UPN now and if others hypothetically could, then why are the ratings going down? They SHOULD be increasing with added viewers gaining UPN. That is of course, unless they watched some episodes and decided the show wasn't good enough for them.

 

You are constantly talking about bringing in new blood, new writers. Well, surprise - they did. Co-Executive Producer and writer Manny Coto (Storm Front Parts 1 & 2, Bound), Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens (The Forge, Observer Effect, United, Divergence), Ken LaZebnik (Borderland, Daedalus) and Michael Bryant (CS12, Daedalus) are all new to Enterprise this season. The other writers this season are Trek vets Andre Bormanis and Mike Sussman.

 

Good. Paramount should recruit more writers in the future when Trek comes back.

 

The only problem is that the show was already near death. The premise never really took off on screen and didn't attract a large amount of viewers. The characters were so poor, no decent writer could do anything with them. Heck, even the poor old actors couldn't do anything with them. For all the efforts of the writers you mentioned, this final season of ENT has been the lowest rated.

 

You can hire the best driver in the world to drive a racing car, but if the car has no wheels, he can't really do anything can he?

 

You could have very good writers, but the premise and characters are weak, then they've got no hope.

 

I'm curious. How many episodes of Enterprise have you watched altogether? What was the last one you watched?

 

All of them except for a few from the Xindi Arc. By then, I had become too disillusioned with the show. I can't remember the name of the last one I watched. That's part of the problem. TNG, DS9 and even VOY had episodes I still remember in great detail. ENT episodes are instantly forgettable. Either that or I've somehow "blocked" the memories to spare myself the suffering. :clap:

 

OK, Takara listen.

 

We are just going to go round in circles with this thing.

 

So this is what I suggest. It's obvious I have been the most vocal Pro-Franchise person on this site over the last few days, and it's equally clear that you won't accept anything I say regarding why ENT failed and I'm going to dispute your theories too.

 

So, go onto KillEnterprise's website and register an account (you won't be classed as an ANTI-ENT person so don't worry about that, because many SaveEnterprise members are also members of the KillEnterprise boards).

 

Post your "ENT failure" theories on that site and leave it there for a day or so, then go back and check what responses have been made. Then at least, you'll get a different perspective from someone other than me, because we are clearly getting nowhere with this.

 

KILL ENTERPRISE :clap:

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You honestly think a media conglomerate of the size of Viacom would cancel an incarnation of it's most prized franchise property without researching in detail how successful the show is in terms of ratings? Do you really think they would be so careless?

301288[/snapback]

 

In a word - yes, mainly because they don't consider Trek to be their "most prized franchise property." When a block of UPN's prized programming took severe hits in the ratings recently, they were right there to complain about the ratings not being accurate. If they don't consider the ratings accurate on Tuesday nights, why should they be considered accurate for Fridays.

 

I always know when it is on. Now, I'm pretty certain you have tv guides in North America.

301288[/snapback]

 

It isn't necessarily a matter of knowing when it is on. Even if a person knows the series is airing locally on Saturdays at 4:00 every week that doesn't help the ratings because they only count the Friday night timeslot.

 

You talk about an alleged lack of promotion and people not having access to UPN, yet VOY consistantly had higher ratings that ENT (around eight million, I believe). That was on UPN.

301288[/snapback]

 

Voyager did not have 8 million viewers because it had the same problem as Enterprise has now - UPN. DS9 averaged around 3.5-4 million viewers in syndication while TNG was around 8-11.50 million viewers. Here's an excerpt from an article at Trek Nation from 1999:

 

Click For Spoiler

 

All of them except for a few from the Xindi Arc. By then, I had become too disillusioned with the show. I can't remember the name of the last one I watched.

301288[/snapback]

 

The Xindi arc was all of season 3.

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For the benefit of King.

 

UPN was started in 1995 and was actually designed to carry VOY, however it was clear the UPN from the first two years was flagging through poor television concepts and therefore lost many of its stations as they drifted to credible proven networks like CBS NBC etc After a while Voyager itself was up for cancellation because it tooo was running ratings like Ent's and actually lower! This was so few people could watch the first run episodes which is what UPN used to guage viewers and to gain advertising At the beginning of ENt the ratings system after a few episodes of high ratings and making actual headway in terms of top 20 watched shows, the ratings system changed, and affiliates began choosing airing days and so any first aired days the UPN chose would always paint an inaccurate picture. they should be using a law of averages to work out the average throughout the week and secondly they should be working contracts to have affiliates showing programs on specific days so that when taking a snapshot of who is watching when they wil get a clear idea. thirdly putting shows against American Idol will result in failure as that show is a ratings puller.

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I agree the Nielsen's don't represent the true viewership. On the other hand it's hard to deny that even the "misrepresented" figures are dropping. In other words, 13 million down to 2 million - even if those numbers aren't representative is still a loss of viewers.

 

IMO, one of the biggest mistakes UPN made was trying to go after the hormone crowd by putting to much emphasis on T'Pol showing skin and not enough on plot and character development. Starting in season two we seldom saw Trip and Archer onscreen together because they were trying to force an unworkable tension between Archer and T'Pol. Then there was season three. :clap: It was the friendships between Kirk/Spock/McCoy that gave character and depth to TOS - they had a chance to do with ENT and threw it away.

 

Then there is plot - a good drama has one. ENT was hit or miss - they had some great episodes - but then they had some that were centered solely on the character's personal lives and that was boring to me.

 

I still don't think they get it. One of the excuses Berman used in an interview for ENT's low ratings is that it has competition from other scifi series. I'm not sure what they considered competition but how many people do you know that only watch one scifi series?

 

The bottom line is Star Trek doesn't appeal to the demographic that UPN wants - they want the people that think subjecting Amish kids to public ridicule is good drama. That's hardly consistent with Star Trek ideology.

 

If Star Trek's only option is to come back on UPN then I worry for its future.

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In a word - yes, mainly because they don't consider Trek to be their "most prized franchise property."

 

They certainly do. Over the past few decades, Star Trek has without any doubt been Paramount's most lucrative property. Nothing else comes near. They did make a lot of money with "Titanic" but that was a joint project with Twentieth Century Fox.

 

When a block of UPN's prized programming took severe hits in the ratings recently, they were right there to complain about the ratings not being accurate. If they don't consider the ratings accurate on Tuesday nights, why should they be considered accurate for Fridays.

The idea of "the ratings are not accurate" is a excuse that can be used by a network too. It's entirely possible the reason the ratings for their other shows suffered was because of the same reason I believe ENT's ratings have been dismal, a lack of quality. If it was an isolated incident and those programmes were usually rated higher, then it could be caused by viewers switching to some other sort of "event" programming. For example England occasionally playing in the World Cup or European Championship will always draw viewers away from other shows.

 

It isn't necessarily a matter of knowing when it is on. Even if a person knows the series is airing locally on Saturdays at 4:00 every week that doesn't help the ratings because they only count the Friday night timeslot.

 

That's their own foolishness then. But there's no evidence to say that the 10 million viewers that the show lost from the pilot episode to the final season were simply watching the show at different times and not being counted. Star Trek is simply too important to Paramount to risk with inaccurate ratings. My own theory is that Paramount saw the CONFIRMED viewing figures and said "that's enough" and ended the show.

 

Here's an excerpt from an article at Trek Nation from 1999:

 

Voyager, on the other hand, has very little that it can brag about. That's not because Voyager is an awful, unpopular show, but because it's on an awful, unpopular network. Voyager can only do as well as UPN because of Voyager's status as a network show. UPN has been losing stations since day one and is now only airing in a little over 60 percent of the nation, meaning that Voyager is competing in a very crowded market with both hands tied behind its back. For its disadvantages, Voyager has still managed to remain UPN's top show. However, Voyager will never be able to perform near the level of its predecessors so long as it drags the carcass of UPN wherever it goes. That's not the sign of viewers losing interest in Trek, it's the sign that viewers aren't interested in UPN.

 

But ask this...why is UPN so unpopular? If it was attracting stellar viewing figures for all it's shows, then the demand would mean UPN would expand it's broadcasting network. A network which shows programmes that people want to see will not deny those potential viewers the chance to watch. The person who wrote that article is partially right however. Viewers ARE interested in Trek....they are just not interested in POOR Trek, and since UPN have built their network around one dismal Trek show (VOY) and one even more dismal Trek show (ENT) naturally, the network suffers. It could also be caused by a lack of general quality across the rest of it's schedule. The problem is QUALITY, because the last two movies have also performed very poorly. INS was a relative flop compared to FC and NEM was a total disaster. So the problems are Trek-related, not UPN's.

 

The Xindi arc was all of season 3.

 

I remember. :clap:

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lets face it on a comparrison with voyager, its most culturally relevant sample, Ent did kinda suck, VOY made me keep coming back, ENT died in the third season. Could it be that we have become savvy as television watchers? or Could it be that shows like Stargate have raised the bar significantly?

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They certainly do. Over the past few decades, Star Trek has without any doubt been Paramount's most lucrative property.

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That doesn't mean they consider it to be a "prized property" now.

 

It isn't necessarily a matter of knowing when it is on. Even if a person knows the series is airing locally on Saturdays at 4:00 every week that doesn't help the ratings because they only count the Friday night timeslot.

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That's their own foolishness then. But there's no evidence to say that the 10 million viewers that the show lost from the pilot episode to the final season were simply watching the show at different times and not being counted. Star Trek is simply too important to Paramount to risk with inaccurate ratings. My own theory is that Paramount saw the CONFIRMED viewing figures and said "that's enough" and ended the show.

301399[/snapback]

 

That's the way UPN's affiliate contracts read so there is nothing UPN can do about it.

 

There is also no evidence to say they aren't either. There are no figures available to say what the total viewership is and Viacom only cares about the Friday night ones.

 

But ask this...why is UPN so unpopular? If it was attracting stellar viewing figures for all it's shows, then the demand would mean UPN would expand it's broadcasting network. A network which shows programmes that people want to see will not deny those potential viewers the chance to watch.

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Star Trek Enterprise is one of their highest rated series despite the problems with the affiliates who air it at different times. UPN offers 12 original series for its affiliates, most of which are 1/2 hour comedies - that's it. The don't provide daytime or late night programing. They offer 2 hours a night, Monday to Friday. If you owned a television station, or were thinking of buying/starting one, would you want more network offerings than that? That is a lot of air time to fill using your own money.

 

The Xindi arc was all of season 3.

301296[/snapback]

I remember. :clap:

301399[/snapback]

In other words, you watched two or three episodes from season three and that's it. You really have no idea what we are fighting for then.

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VOY was a very weak show, but it had just enough to take it to seven seasons, even though it had a terrible last episode (even Robert Beltran said that).

 

I think a large number of Trek fans can see poor quality very clearly and if they see it, they will not watch. It's really just that simple. The next few Trek projects MUST be of a very high standard otherwise the inherant problems will remain. B/B must go. For my side, that is an absolutely essential condition.

 

 

RE: Stargate, I never really liked it. I watched the first few episodes then lost interest. I didn't like the actors who substituted for Kurt Russell and James Spader, and that guy with the gold thing on his head annoyed me :clap:

 

The movie was "ok". But I never really cared much for the series.

 

Other than Star Trek and Star Wars, I don't watch any other sci-fi.

 

Click For Spoiler
That doesn't mean they consider it to be a "prized property" now.

 

Sure they do. The fact they cancelled it now means that they are trying to protect the future of their franchise from an incarnation which was going absolutely nowhere.

 

Star Trek Enterprise is one of their highest rated series despite the problems with the affiliates who air it at different times.

 

It might be one of their highest rated shows but it's still not high enough to sustain the show. Even aside from some vague speculation over viewers not being counted, the show is attracting very low numbers of confirmed viewers and Viacom have ended it, and rightly so.

 

UPN offers 12 original series for its affiliates, most of which are 1/2 hour comedies - that's it. The don't provide daytime or late night programing. They offer 2 hours a night, Monday to Friday. If you owned a television station, or were thinking of buying/starting one, would you want more network offerings than that?

 

That is a lot of air time to fill using your own money.

 

I wouldn't own a network like that. Mine would be based on Rupert Murdoch's Sky Television, with channels for all tastes and specialised viewing. That's the future of broadcasting in the Western World

 

In other words, you watched two or three episodes from season three and that's it. You really have no idea what we are fighting for then.

 

In YOUR incorrect words? Yes.

 

In my more accurate words? No.

 

I do understand what you are fighting for. You are fighting for a show that very few people watched. It's a fight you won't win because you just don't have the numbers that you need. Neither in terms of viewers or supporters for your campaign.

Edited by The King

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King Star wars... not the worlds greates movie, and RDA is a god!

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The trilogy is excellent.

But King, If you dont like ENT thats fine, you're intitiled to your own opinion. But no ones making you watch it. The point is, we are trying to save it for those of us who do. So I suggest you sign the petition, not because you're going to watch it, but so ENT fans can, and to generally keep the Star Trek saga going. No hard feeling meant :)

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*** WARNING ***

 

If you are easily upset or offended by views which don't support the TV series Star Trek: Enterprise and the campaign to save it, then don't bother opening this spoiler. Just skip over this post and don't read it.

 

Click For Spoiler
The point is, we are trying to save it for those of us who do. So I suggest you sign the petition, not because you're going to watch it, but so ENT fans can, and to generally keep the Star Trek saga going. No hard feeling meant 

 

Well, this is the problem.

 

When the show was being broadcast I NEVER said "Enterprise should be cancelled" because although I felt it wasn't a very good show and I felt it was harming the franchise, I understood that some people wanted to watch it, so it wouldn't be right for me to say "Cancel It" because I would have been angry if someone tried to get my precious Deep Space Nine off the air because they didn't happen to like it.

 

But..........when Paramount announced that the show was being cancelled, I agreed with their decision, and my perspective immediately changed, because I believed that now that it had been cancelled, there was no reason to put it back on air, since I strongly believe Paramount realised it was harming future potential for the franchise and took the wise decision and removed it from the air.

 

My side generally don't feel that keeping a poor Trek show on air does any favours to the franchise at all. It may "keep it going", but what's the point of keeping it going if it's heading for a giant abyss? It's better to stop the franchise for a while, fix what needs to be fixed and then start it up again when the time and premise is right and a new foundation has been built for it.

 

That's why I will not sign ANY petition to save that show. It may have a few supporters but I'm not going to sacrifice the great Star Trek franchise just to satisfy them. I encourage any person reading this who supports bringing QUALITY back to Star Trek to oppose ANY moves the Pro-ENT side makes to bring that show back. Use their own techniques and strategies against them. Then again, we could just sit back and relax and let them burn themselves out, which WILL happen.

 

If they appeal for funds, don't donate. If they want you to sign a petition, don't sign it. If they are on the radio, call in and debunk their claims and excuses. If they take out ads in magazines and newspapers, don't buy them or don't read them. Maintain a strong presence on their Pro-ENT/Save-ENT sites and message boards to bring reasoned rebuttals to their claims. If at conventions or wherever, they organise protests, then organise counter-protests. If they send feedback, faxes, e-mails, letters etc to Paramount to demand the show returns, then use those same addresses to counter their demands and INSTEAD you should demand that Berman is fired and that Trek is rested until Paramount have the creative staff in place to give the Pro-Franchise side the Trek future they deserve.

 

Star Trek, quite simply should be above and beyond ALL other shows. It must be held to a higher standard of excellence. The HIGHEST standards possible. We must accept NOTHING less than the best.

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Though I don't agree with The King, I don't think he should sign the petition if he doesn't want to. I mean, he's happy with the way things are now, so why should he try to change them?

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Well I agree with king the first thing I thought when I got the PM saying if you don't like the show just do it anyways.

 

 

King I have been holding this in for a real real long time.

I am well really really bothered that you come in here into this forum that says *Thesaveenterprisefourm* and start preaching about how you think the show was bad. Good god its like having a democrat going to the republican convention and preaching his beliefs to them it really really bothers me. I do not care if you did it in off topic or you made your own topic in enterprise or some other forum then this one called *theanti enterprise forum* I would not be bothered if you did that but I just hate it when you complain and debate it in here.

 

 

As for enterprise, I thought it was a good show it probally won't come back because there are not enogth of us and since when do I have the money to fly to los angelos to go *hey paramount I think its wrong for you to cancel enterprise, thwack a berman save a enterprise!*

 

I wish I could help out but I am really bad with PM but I am supposedly a really good motivational speaker.

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