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Theunicornhunter

Vulcan Irrationality

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I'm really starting not to like Vulcans. I mentioned in another thread about watching Journel to Babel - I about fell off my couch when Sarek held up his hand and summoned Amanda away from Spock - and she ran over like a little puppy. I'd have taken the points right out of those ears. B)

 

But there was an episode where T'Pol was explaning that Vulcans believed in a philosophy based on logic. I finally realized what is wrong with that. Logic is a tool not a philosophy.

-All logic can do is help you accomplish your goals - and your goals are driven by your values. So what do Vulcans value? They're supposedly pacifists but their ships have weapons. They value lack of emotions - which raises my next contention.

-This Vulcan double speak assumes emotion and logic are mutually exclusive but I disagree. Humans are very capable of logic - even four year olds know how to argue logic with you. I mentioned this too in another thread that many professions require people be able to set aside emotion and act rationally - soldiers, laywers, medical professionals to name a few.

- Some criminals are very logical - some of them are also devoid of emotion (or at least the ability to feel empathy). What separates them from Vulcans? Their goals?

 

The Vulcans we know best are Spock, Tuvok and T'Pol, with Sarek, Vorrick, Soval and Saavik and Valeris. Spock made the comment that Sarek could kill if he had a logical reason so again we're back to logic being a tool, and Valeris showed that Vulcans do act independently to achieve certain goals.

 

So what is the Vulcan philosophy?

 

It seems to me

-looking down on humans - particularly in ENT

-vegetarians

-may or may not be pacifists

-suppressing emotions

 

Spock seemed to have an affinity for art, music and science.

Tuvok was a loyal friend who mentored younger shipmates (Kim and Kes)

Both were capable of feeling.

 

I just don't get why suppressing emotions is superior to controlling them - Archer didn't do what he did this last season out of irrational behavior but of a calculated commitment to a specific goal that superceded everything else. He was the logical one (in that sense) this last season.

 

All this rant boils down to is you can't make decisions until you are certain of your goals and/or values. I'm just not seeing where Vulcan values are in any way superior to humans. In fact I think they're trying to confuse us by clouding what those values are.

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To right u are Unicorn, the Vulcan's are hypocritical little savage's with little respect for anyone outside thier own race. In short they are:

 

-They are Racist to alot of alien cultures which is shown by thier attititude towards them as well as respect

 

-Thier ignorance on many things including time travel and such laws of physics that have been proven by Humans but not by them

 

-Their bragging of Logic eventho they undermine themselves with the belief that thier society is perfect and other's are not

 

-They hold back other race's technological leaps and bounds so they can always stay on top (Holding back Human's from warp "Broken Bow")

 

-They would try to hold u back from finding the culprits eventho your homeworld was brutaly attacked

 

Im still thinking of more so ill be back soon thanks.

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ENT has thrown the Vulcan bandwagon out of whack. There is a noticeable difference between ENT's Vulcans and the other ones.

 

For example, I find that if a mind meld is "emotional" and banned, how can Faltor pan be achieved?

 

I must point that out. Emotion and logic are mutually exclusive. What humor is there in math? The subject of logic is the philosphy. How you use it is a very different thing. Our nature as humans tends to be emotional. For example, when you are a medical professional, do you make a joke or tell an anecdote? There is some emotion to that. Same with soldiers. There is always going to be some hate for the enemy. Lawyers appeal to the emotions of the jury, not to the logic.

 

We as humans use logic all the time. There is no argument.

 

But what is boils down to is not just values, it is what values are compared to logic. What is logic? that is the question that needs to be answered.

 

Carrion's argument has some flaws.

 

1. -Thier ignorance on many things including time travel and such laws of physics that have been proven by Humans but not by them

 

One things is that only ENT Vulcans doubt time-travel. Remember Spock has time-traveled on many an occasion. The problem is the difference between ENT Vulcans and other periods of Vulcans.

 

2.-They hold back other race's technological leaps and bounds so they can always stay on top (Holding back Human's from warp "Broken Bow")

 

Also an example of the ENT Vulcan portrayal. Vulcans are very much logical in a way that is scientific. Look at experiments. They are made to be performed the same way. One way. To follow instructions. However, the portrayal you make of it is that they are trying to prevent us from discovering the technology. What is warp and technology? It is science. There is something very logical and very lacking of emotion called the scientific method.

 

Vulcans can be "illogical" in your terms but they quite follow the basic tenets of science. Keep emotions and logic separate. No emotion.

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I must disagree WAB, logic and emotion are not mutually exlusive - by your own description a person is capable of using both - the fact that someone uses emotion does not mean they can not use logic as well.

 

What is logic is quite simple - it is a process of deriving conclusions that are supported by the facts. (your basic if all labs are dogs - and Spot is a lab then Spot must be a dog.)

 

Star Trek chooses to define logic as making rational decisions without emotion. However, you can still make erroneous decisions (you can't conclude all dogs are labs) even if you don't use emotion, and emotional beings can still make rational decisions.

 

To say Vulcans believe in logic is meaningless - they could use that logic to accomplish either "good" or "bad" acts. Hence their philosophy is dependent on the object of their use of logic.

 

btw, if a lawyer appeals to the emotions of the jury it is because he/she made a rational decision that that is the best way to win the case. Representing a client despite public disapproval because "the system" depends on it is a rational act.

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Lets face it "I Must protest!!! to offer the Vulcans safe Haven space in our side of the Neutral zone is suicide, they would become the alien trash of the galaxy"- I Modded a speech from ST VI, thats all they are trash don't need em don't want em. They wanna go ahead and be logical they can kiss their trained minds goodbye when something alters the timeline and they don't wanna do anything about it because they don't believe in timetravel then they will learn about 1 of their main faults!!!

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I'll tell you what the problem with Vulcans is;

 

They evolved on a harsh planet, which results in quick evolution, changes happened in their society that they couldn't control, its as if Vulcans were teenagers with growing pains, hormones and emotions raging. They came to the 'logical' conclusion that violence (they became vegetarians) and emotions are bad, so they suppress their emotions. Also they controlled other lifes evolution to prevent more like them. As Vulcan and Human interaction grew, Vulcans started to stop suppressing their emotions and start controlling them as we do.

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I agree with allot of what you say U. H. however the weapons on their ships are for defence. It would not be very logical to fly around the galaxy if you can't defend yourself. Also, it is explained in Trek that Vulcans were a warlike race and without contolling their emotions they would be as erratic as well should we say modern day humans.? It would seem to me we don't contol our emotions as a race very well and if you don't believe me, just watch the news.

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Airies,

IMO carrying weapons for defense is a good idea but true pacifists don't use violence even for self defense (such as the Society of Friends etc). I can't say it is illogical - if they rather die than harm another person then not having weapons is logical for their values. The problem I have with Vulcans is they aren't clear or consistent in what they believe - they only seem to be pacifists when it involves looking down on humans. I'm not saying that being a pacifist is "wrong" I am saying it is inconsistent to claim to be one and act agressively (as Vulcans have done)

 

As for emotions, acts of violence don't necessarily imply emotions. Indeed a psychopath is someone almost devoid of emotion - who is certainly unable to experience empathy. As I stated in my first post, people can be very logical in committing crime - logic is only a tool. I would say the terrorist attacks of 9-11 were very carefully and logically executed.

 

And as hard as it may be to believe - local acts of violence only represent a small percentage of the population so you can't judge an entire population based on a small percentage. Then there's the drug factor where people are chemically disabled from controlling their emotions.

 

War obviously involves greater numbers but - I don't think defending yourself when attacked is a lack of emotional control - I think it is quite logical if you value staying alive. (again it boils down to what you value)

 

IMO, there is a difference between controlling emotions and suppressing emotions. I think those that control them are stronger than those that suppress them (and healthier). Consequently I think Humans are superior to Vulcans :innocent:

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You can parallel a period of Mauryan India or the warring states period of china to the vulcan attainment of logic.

As most know, the Romulans used to be Vulcans but since they fought a war, the Vulcans tried to attain logic. this movement was founded by Surak. He insisted that education and logic and order would stop such wars and purging emotion would be key.

Ashoka Maurya led a vicious war against the Kalingas. He slaughtered over 100,000 people. After this war occurred, Ashoka insisted on a buddhist way of life and ahimsa (non-violence). Also edicts were sent out to educate the people about order.

The Warring States Period was 402-201 B.C. In the midst of this anarchy in China, the philosophy of Confucianism was born. It was founded by Kung Fu-zi. He insisted that education was the way to harness the goodness of humanity. Confucianism also encourages a very structured order, one opposed to the anarchy and chaos of his contemporary period.

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