And what of Lore?

[Lessa_Soong 0]

If, before his untimely (say it ain't so!!) death, Data took it upon himself to fix the damage done to Lore by the phaser fire at the end of Decent, and then fix the problem that their father did not live long enough to repair...

do you think Lore could have lived to become a productive member of the galaxy WITH his memory of his old life intact or would it have been necessary to wipe his memory and start over.

[jdigs 0]

what they did with Lore was good. He was a character that was supposed to be a foil to Data..having him run around being "good" would destroy all the other stories they used to create his character.

[Yillara Skye 1]

I don't think his memory should be wiped....it would change who he is. Even though he would have to live with the guilt of having the blood of hundreds or even thousands of innocent people on his hands...so, then you would have to worry about him trying to kill himself....darn that IS a conundrum, Lessa!

[Takara_Soong 4]

I would love to see Lore repaired but I wouldn't want him to become a goodie goodie. I'm not sure how he would deal with the knowledge of the things he had done if he were no longer "evil". It would be very difficult and possibly counselling would help but it would take a long time. I don't think he should have his memory wiped though. It's that old antedote about history - when you forget history you are doomed to repeat it - something like that.

[Lessa_Soong 0]

Please don't believe i wish Lore to be a goody goody. You can be 'bad' and not be criminal. If he ever lost that smirk, he would not be LORE.

 

Should he then retain all of his memories...not even parts deleted?

 

He could still be told of his past, but not remembering it may make it easier to handle...

if he were fixed, could the old memories corrupt him again?

[Takara_Soong 4]

I would be devastated if he lost that smirk!!!

 

I'm not sure. I guess part of the problem with wiping his memories would be the number of people who know of his past and would probably bring it up continually. Would that be worse - having no memory and people telling you constantly how bad you were or having the memories and dealing with them sometimes. There are people who have done evil things but then turn their life around completely so I think it would be possible for him to go on with the memories still intact.

[prometheus 0]

Memory wiping causes ethical problems which could then be applied to humans as well. For example memory wiping penal colonies. There would be a lack of respect for autonomy here. Lore was a great 'evil twin' (thank god for no goatee beard LOL). What made him a great evil twin was the fact that Data was so good and incapable of being evil so the contrast was greater.

[trekbabe 0]

Iwouldn't want to see Lore become a goody, but if he were to you would have to wipe his memory as i think the guilt of all the things he had done would destroy him.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Excellent topic! One I think would be worthy of having a distinguished Trek author (or anyone) pick up the ball and write a novel about. Was it " Maddox" who wanted to take Data apart and use him as a test bed to create more data’s with? Would Starfleet grant him permission to "work" with Lore? How would the questions raised by this topic be addressed? Would the experiments go awry and Lore escape to again reek havoc on the Galaxy or would Maddox be successful and as a result, get his wish for a "Data Class Android" on every Starship in the Fleet? What would be the Citizens of the Federation reactions, in either case be? Are there any authors out there?

[Lessa_Soong 0]

Actually, i ask with good reason. I have two stories going where i really need a good answer for this.

I feel at times that Trekbabe's point about the old knowledge destroying the new man is a danger.

 

The thing is tht Lore is NOT human. having a crazy android running around is a hundred times more dangerous then a plain old human or even a crazy Vulcan.

There is almost no limit to the damage Lore could do if allowed, but how do you fix him and ensure that he stays FIXED?

[Yillara Skye 1]

I think that removing certain events from his memory...the attack on the outposts, the destruction of the colony, stuff like that... Because I definately believe that you would go from a dangerous psychotic android, to a very suicidal grief-striken one if you were to let him retain all of the memories. And a complete memory wipe?Forget ever seeing that smirk again, he would be completely different....but if for any reason his memory was not the cause for him going to the bad...you would HAVE to make sure you found the cause and repaired it...or, he'd be off and running, planning to destroy humanity again!

[Lessa_Soong 0]

I think that he need an adjustment to his ethical subroutine. Perhaps some of his emotional responce routines need some tweeking as well, but it would require transfers from Data, Like with Lal, to correct (Dr. Lessa Barrows opinion as the most up and coming cyberneticist. )

 

I think this may be the direction to go in. He would have to be told of his past, but it may be easier not being able to see the faces of those he killed in his dreams or even awake. Perfect memory could be a curse in this respect.

[ensign_beedrill 0]

Once I read a book called The Android (the tenth book in a series called Animorphs by K.A. Applegate) about a group of kids who fight to save the Earth from an invasion by evil aliens. Actually, it's a series. Anyway, they have this friend and he's an android. He is very powerful and very strong, and would make a great fighting ally, but he is incapable of violence. He can't harm anybody. His creators made him that way. Well, these kids find a way to help him turn off these limitations, and he fights in a battle with them. Afterwards, he can't stand it. He can't stand what he'd done... that he'd killed people. He asks them to put those limits back in place. They do. He then talks to one of the kids, asking him how they deal with it all. He said that it's hard, but over time, they just try to forget. And the android said that he couldn't forget. If he lived for a million years he wouldn't forget. It would always be there, fresh in his mind. Because he's an android, and they can't forget.

 

I don't know about Lore. I'd hate to see him as a good guy, because he makes an excellent bad guy. ^-^ But if he were to turn good, he'd have those memories always in his mind. He's not human, he can't forget. He can't just shove them away as we would. They would always be there, easily accessible. And I think that would get to him. It would hurt him a lot more than if he were human.

[Takara_Soong 4]

I'm resurrecting a few old topics so BUMP!

[Matt 0]

No I don't think he could have been good if his memory had been wiped, experiences make a person what they are.

[Christiantrekfan 0]

I'm with Matt, they probably would have had to wipe his memory for him to become good.

[Kor37 9]

Data kept Lore,Lal and his "mother" aboard the Enterprise-D. All were probably destroyed when the ship crashed.

[Crazy-Trek-Kitten 0]

B) I am not sure. I mean I think that they would have to delete them cause who knows how he was treated. I mean he could have had very bad experiences and people using him and stuff and that may have just destroyed his fail. I would be happy to help him " Keep the faith" or regain it am most likely be the first person neck he bracks. :spidy: Then agien if he where to fall in love with some one hopefully my self then that may change him. Love is very powerful. B)

 

And I love the animated stuff how do you do it?

B)

Edited January 28, 2005 by Alterego

[Temporal Insurgent 0]

I think it has as much to do with his emotions as it does his memories.

Lore had emotions but without empathy for others. He was like a child in that he thought only in terms of his own needs even at the expense of others.

 

but, his earliest memories include his 'father' killing him (disassembling him), his brother beams him into space, later he kills him (disassembling again)

 

considering he is barely more than a toddler (only a very few years of life between shut downs) I don't know if I would call him evil. Maybe emotional immaturity combined with very dangerous abilities.

[Yillara Skye 1]

Data kept Lore,Lal and his "mother" aboard the Enterprise-D. All were probably destroyed when the ship crashed.

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Ah, now that is from the book "Immortal Coil", and pretty much would not be canon. Since it is from a novel and not from either the series and movies.

 

From what we can guess Lore and Lal are there, there was no concrete evidence taht this is so, however.. His mother is still, presumably, alive on Atrea (which she returned home to at the end of the episode, "Inheritance"). There was no definate idea as to whether or not Lore had been returned to the lab on Omicron Theta as a final resting place, or was he stored(as was suggested in the novel).

 

 

 

I do still stand by my almost two year old opinion that he could be brought back, but care has to be taken to remove select events from his memory so that he can better deal with going on with his life. I still think a complete memory wipe would not be a good plan.

[Crazy-Trek-Kitten 0]

I think it has as much to do with his emotions as it does his memories.

Lore had emotions but without empathy for others. He was like a child in that he thought only in terms of his own needs even at the expense of others.

 

but, his earliest memories include his 'father' killing him (disassembling him), his brother beams him into space, later he kills him (disassembling again)

 

considering he is barely more than a toddler (only a very few years of life between shut downs) I don't know if I would call him evil. Maybe emotional immaturity combined with very dangerous abilities.

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B) Damn I think you really just hit the nail on the head, but also he is emotionally distured as well. B)

Edited January 28, 2005 by Alterego

[Takara_Soong 4]

Data kept Lore,Lal and his "mother" aboard the Enterprise-D. All were probably destroyed when the ship crashed.

298341[/snapback]

 

I agree with what Yillara said about canon and about Juliana Tainer. Juliana was alive at the end of Inheritance and only those few members of the Enterprise crew even knew she was an android. I believe it would be pretty safe to assume that when she dies that she will be buried (or whatever her husband's culture calls for) on Atrea IV.

 

Here is a reminder of what is canon:

Click For Spoiler

As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, the Animated Adventures, and the various comic lines are not canon.

There are only a couple of exceptions to this rule: the Jeri Taylor penned novels "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters. (Note: There are a few details from an episode of the Animated Adventures that have entered into the Star Trek canon. The episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, features some biographical background on Spock.) from st.com

 

Personally, I'm not sure what happened to Lore. At the end of Descent Part 2, Geordi comes into Data's quarters where they speak:

 

http://www.mts.net/~jjjcmj/chip.swf

 

Data indicates that he had the chip removed, not that he removed the chip which makes it sound like he was not involved with the dismantling of Lore. I would prefer to think that Lore's body stayed with Data but I think it is more likely that it was sent to the Daystrom Institute to be studied.

 

Temporal Insurgent, I find your comments to be fascinating. Many of the members who know me, know it has always be my cry that Lore is not evil, just misunderstood. B)

[Temporal Insurgent 0]

Thanks, Crazy-Trek-Kitten. I agree Lore was disturbed, but I shyed away from using the term because it would lead some to think of him as the "pycho android" not that "evil android" is any better. B)

 

Any time you combine the physical and mental power of an android with the run away id of a small child, blood will be spilled.

[Crazy-Trek-Kitten 0]

Thanks, Crazy-Trek-Kitten. I agree Lore was disturbed, but I shyed away from using the term because it would lead some to think of him as the "pycho android" not that "evil android" is any better. B)

 

Any time you combine the physical and mental power of an android with the run away id of a small child, blood will be spilled.

298451[/snapback]

 

 

B) I think he well it is hard to explain I had I good explanation but my pc frooze. But I do remeber areeing

 

 

Cheers and here is to you Temporal Insurgent

[Temporal Insurgent 0]

:( cheers Crazy-Trek-Kitten. (and hey, unfreeze your pc and share your explanation. I'd love to read it. :) )

 

Takara_Soong, I'm sure you're correct about the fates of Lore and Juliana. (her secret will probably be buried with her and I can't believe that starfleet would allow lore to just gather dust aboard the enterprise.)

 

I too think that Lore was misunderstood, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't dangerous. (just not evil) The danger was from his great abilities coupled with emotional problems.

 

I think that the only episode that did Lore justce was "Brothers". We get a small peek into the tourtured soul of Lore when he displays real pain and confusion when faced with soong and his excuses for his treatment of Lore.

 

A android capable of billions of calculations per second, strength beyond any human, but inside he is just a small child that is hurt and angry because his daddy doesn't love him and in fact tried to kill him.

 

Soong said that Lore's emotions 'twisted', but I think soong created a fully self-aware being with the full range of emotions, a son, and treated it like just another experiment.

Lore was his child, but he only saw an android.

Lore couldn't recover from that early trauma.

Indeed, Lore never had a chance.

[Takara_Soong 4]

I agree with much of your assessment regarding Lore, Temporal Insurgent. Although I've always preferred to blame the colonists on Omicron Theta rather than Noonien Soong for being the cause of Lore's torment. I could see where Lore would feel superior to the humans there but still be hurt by being shunned by them. Soong said in Brothers that the colonists were afraid of Lore but we don't know why they were afraid. Were they afraid of him from the start because he was an artificial life form or did his behaviour justify that fear. Having said that, Soong did, in effect, take the side of the colonists over Lore by disassembling him which would probably seem like the ultimate betrayal to Lore. Once he was re-assembled he would have no reason for caring for his father. It would explain why Soong thought Lore wouldn't hurt him in Brothers and why he turned out to be wrong.

[Crazy-Trek-Kitten 0]

:( cheers Crazy-Trek-Kitten. (and hey, unfreeze your pc and share your explanation. I'd love to read it. :) )

 

Takara_Soong, I'm sure you're correct about the fates of Lore and Juliana. (her secret will probably be buried with her and I can't believe that starfleet would allow lore to just gather dust aboard the enterprise.)

 

I too think that Lore was misunderstood, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't dangerous. (just not evil) The danger was from his great abilities coupled with emotional problems.

 

I think that the only episode that did Lore justce was "Brothers". We get a small peek into the tourtured soul of Lore when he displays real pain and confusion when faced with soong and his excuses for his treatment of Lore.

 

A android capable of billions of calculations per second, strength beyond any human, but inside he is just a small child that is hurt and angry because his daddy doesn't love him and in fact tried to kill him.

 

Soong said that Lore's emotions 'twisted', but I think soong created a fully self-aware being with the full range of emotions, a son, and treated it like just another  experiment.

Lore was his child, but he only saw an android.

Lore couldn't recover from that early trauma.

Indeed, Lore never had a chance.

298787[/snapback]

 

 

You need to get out of my head!!!!! That is part of my explaination and exactly part of what i think. are you my mirror self for the other univers *rips off his facal hair thing.* YOU ARE AHHHHHHHHHHH :( :)

[Crazy-Trek-Kitten 0]

I forgot what my good thing was **** it he he( I cenered myself ) he he he weeee

I am in a good mood so don't any one ruin it!

[Yillara Skye 1]

I agree with much of your assessment regarding Lore, Temporal Insurgent. Although I've always preferred to blame the colonists on Omicron Theta rather than Noonien Soong for being the cause of Lore's torment. I could see where Lore would feel superior to the humans there but still be hurt by being shunned by them. Soong said in Brothers that the colonists were afraid of Lore but we don't know why they were afraid. Were they afraid of him from the start because he was an artificial life form or did his behaviour justify that fear.  Having said that, Soong did, in effect, take the side of the colonists over Lore by disassembling him which would probably seem like the ultimate betrayal to Lore. Once he was re-assembled he would have no reason for caring for his father. It would explain why Soong thought Lore wouldn't hurt him in Brothers and why he turned out to be wrong.

298818[/snapback]

 

Takara's statements pretty much echo with what I feel regarding Lore's behavior and life on Omicron Theta. I think that the colonists probably gave the Soongs a hard time, enough to dismantle him... because somehow I think Julianna would have stepped in. She said she viewed them as her own children. I really have a hard time believing she would not step in to save her son unless it was a case of real severe trouble with them versus the whole population. True, on the other hand was the one who claimed that she requested that Data be dismantled for fear he would turn out like Lore. But, she also could be saying that to defend her husband...basically taking the blame for the idea of dismantling their children claiming them to be a danger. In either case, she sure did not look like she was comfortable talking about it... so it probably was quite a situation back then. So I guess this is a conundrum, on the grounds that we truly do not know what happened (personally, if it is written well... it would probably make for a good Lost Era book. If I am correct they already have one regarding a portion of Riker's past, as well as other series crew members. I know it would not be canon to the series... but it would make for an interesting read anyhow. Since I doubt that would be in a Trek movie, and TNG has been over for almost 11 years)

Edited January 29, 2005 by Yillara_Soong

[Temporal Insurgent 0]

You need to get out of my head!!!!!  That is part of my explaination and exactly part of what i think.  are you my mirror self for the other univers *rips off his facal hair thing.*  YOU ARE AHHHHHHHHHHH B)  :o

298865[/snapback]

 

I'm a temporal insurgent, all I had to do was check out a timeline where your pc didn't freeze and copy the post that you wrote in that reality. :lol:

By the way, your other self said "Hi". :lol:

 

Yillara_Soong, not only would the fate of Lore make a great book, but I thought that it would have made Nemesis more interesting if we saw Lore as Shinzon's willing ally instead of poor naive B4 as his puppet.